First fight in a 109

[MoGas]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Two things if you get dragged into a turn fight with a red plane for whatever reason. Give it a bit of flaps and use the 109s superiour roll rate. Works better against Spits then Hurries, though.

And then?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by MoGas

And then?

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

[MoGas]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by MoGas

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

[JG5_emil]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

[jimbop]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

I tried this earlier today. A hurri had hit me and broken my radiator. The venting had stopped so I thought I may not have long before the engine died. We were on the deck, he was not far behind and at about co-E. I turned sharply and chopped throttle. He overshot and I hit him. I'd think twice if there was more than one around, though. You are stuffed if you miss.

[JG5_emil]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

99% of the time you've got in to that situation because you've made mistake.

make less mistakes and you'll find you spend less and less time performing crazy energy wasting manoeuvres on the deck in the vain hope that you get away.

If you haven't wasted all your altitude and speed and you get bounced you can then trade it in for speed and bug out to fly another day.

Glad you enjoy what you are doing, just saying that the best way to avoid such a situation is not to get into it in the first place.

[JG5_emil]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

Your comment is not wrong per se. But we have to agree to disagree that there is this kind of 100 percent control of the battlefield. Especially if you fly with people outside your own squad and thus the lack of propper drill.

Besides, I think you are vastly underestimating the capabilities of the 109 in these kind of situations and that dismissing them outright on the basis of pure principle is like cutting off your left hand to prove that your right hand is better at bashing the opponent.