Battle of Chernobyl

[ingsoc84]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Germany has plans to cease use of nuclear power within the next couple years. Germany has experienced nuclear radiation from Chernobyl and the they dont' want more of the same from their own plants.

About all that can be done is to keep governments from allowing anymore to be built. Since 3 mile island meltdown in USA not another plant has been built. The energy money grubbers are licking their chops, patiently waiting for the chance to build more.

So the "nuclear" moneygrubbers are just chomping at the bit to build more reactors? I though it was "big oil" that were the moneygrubbers in the energy business...do you mean to tell me that there are more than one band of money grubbers looking to steal our money to keep the lights on? Couldn't imagine that.

So what do you suggest? NO fossil fuels? No Nuclear power plants? Solyndra sure worked out well in the States, there is another 1/2 billion down the tubes for "clean efficient affordable solar energy". Maybe solar cells can power up all our homes and cars? Not likely.

Bad old nuclear power...Ohh my...and where is your proof that if the could have diverted all the money spent on nuclear construction, research etc., and developed a cleaner form of fossil fuel or other fuel? There is none, it's just an assumption.

The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

As far as Chernobyl is concerned, it's amazing anything mechanical in that country works, let alone something built during the Soviet period. Have you ever been there? They still make gigantic apartment blocks just like they did in the 30's...cheap. shoddy, the entire country looks like a giant machine that has been left out to rust in the rain for the past 50 years, and that's being polite. It's truly amazing given their lack of building standards now and especially then that that reactor didn't have a problem day one when it went online.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ingsoc84

So the "nuclear" moneygrubbers are just chomping at the bit to build more reactors? I though it was "big oil" that were the moneygrubbers in the energy business...do you mean to tell me that there are more than one band of money grubbers looking to steal our money to keep the lights on? Couldn't imagine that.

What big business isn't a money grubber? It's part of their very nature, that has to be accepted and taken into account without any ill feelings. After all that is how capitalism works.

So what do you suggest? NO fossil fuels? No Nuclear power plants? Solyndra sure worked out well in the States, there is another 1/2 billion down the tubes for "clean efficient affordable solar energy". Maybe solar cells can power up all our homes and cars? Not

Actually, that is exactly where it will ultimately lead too. Fossil fuels are running out, the reserves we still have require ever more expensive and dangerous exploitation methods while world demand still climbs. Now you certainly can try to fight another couple wars to secure those reserves, but given the costs for modern wars (what was Iraq? 3 Trillion?), environmental costs and the potential damage to other industries like fishing, I am not sure the final bill really justifies that policy.

Bad old nuclear power...Ohh my...and where is your proof that if the could have diverted all the money spent on nuclear construction, research etc., and developed a cleaner form of fossil fuel or other fuel? There is none, it's just an assumption.

Nothing bad about it, just becoming a bit outdated and too many open questions that hang in the air for 40+ years without answers to this date. In Germany some 300 billion have been spend on nuclear energy subsidies over the last decades, compared to around 40 billion on renewables. There is no "proof" that this money would have achieved more if it went into nuclear, but the likelyhood is quite obvious, especially when looking at the recent achievements in developments of alternatives. Too many ppl assume we already are at the end of line in regards to alternatives development, while in fact we are just at the beginning. Broad application of those technologies will only accelerate this development, if comparisons to other new technologies and their history are taken into account.

The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

huh? AFAIK, Russia needs our money as much as we need their gas. Even during the most tense days of the cold war the russians made their deliveries here. I doubt that will change anytime soon. There is a reason why there was a new pipeline built through the baltic going around countries like Ukraine who fail to pay their bills. (the political questions that raises have to be debated on another page)

As far as Chernobyl is concerned, it's amazing anything mechanical in that country works, let alone something built during the Soviet period. Have you ever been there? They still make gigantic apartment blocks just like they did in the 30's...cheap. shoddy, the entire country looks like a giant machine that has been left out to rust in the rain for the past 50 years, and that's being polite. It's truly amazing given their lack of building standards now and especially then that that reactor didn't have a problem day one when it went online.

I do not think slamming of russian tech, justified or not, has a lot to do with current day problems in regards to energy consumption and future developments.

[nearmiss]

Governments can control capitalism.

Governments can control just about everything. They have the power, whether they take it with despotic rule or acquire it by democratic vote.

It is incomprehensible to think that governments could be so uncaring about the potential of nuclear energy for eternal disaster.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Governments can control capitalism.

Governments can control just about everything. They have the power, whether they take it with despotic rule or acquire it by democratic vote.

It is incomprehensible to think that governments could be so uncaring about the potential of nuclear energy for eternal disaster.

dude, I'm afraid you kinda miss an adequate sense of perspective on the matter: when BP had the massive oil spillage happening on the US coast, they shelled out 21 billion dollars (!!!) without the blink of an eye.. you know how many countries' debts you could fix with that amount of money?!
Governments bow in front of these giants, allowing them to do what they want. That's the real issue, the true nature of capitalism is one where there's no rules nor control.. capitalism is wild and has no mercy, man..

imo the capitalism you speak of isnt capitalism forthright. it is the basterdised version where the criminals have influence. By criminals i mean those reaping (or is that raping) to much from the economy and the people through the consideration of balance, balance of wealth that is.

i make no bones about saying true honest capitalism does work.

The equation for Growth is unsustainable with our present notion of capitalism, Of which this is.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Ali Fish

imo the capitalism you speak of isnt capitalism forthright. it is the basterdised version where the criminals have influence. By criminals i mean those reaping (or is that raping) to much from the economy and the people through the consideration of balance, balance of wealth that is.

i make no bones about saying true honest capitalism does work.

The equation for Growth is unsustainable with our present notion of capitalism, Of which this is.

I see what you mean, but frankly I've never regarded capitalism as "honest".. I mean yes, if we look at it and treat it like dogma, yes, but human nature gets in the way, turning it into probably the vilest form of exploitation of the weaker.

[nearmiss]

Again government can control capitalism. Government has the power in the country it controls. Capitalism is not government and only has abilities for whatever it does as allowed by governments.

The media and all the government persuasions for manipulating it's people point at concepts like capitalism and blame it. That is just a diversion, government is the power. Doesn't matter what you call it capitalism, fascism, etc. Just words... government is the power.

[el0375]

[ to post on previous pages
About BP spill, i knew a person with a very interesting project to recover the petrol/gas/solid from the well( aside from many details, even for me the idea seemed very promising) but his superiors 'stopped' him because ''BP has paid already a lot in this matter''... ]

In general i think that EU is in quite bad position if things turn bad, energetically speaking. I don't know if really that accurate, but i seen data that we have to import 55% and increasing of our total energy needs. If something happens ( e.g. supplies from biggest energy exporter to EU) our lives most probably will change ( good or bad? )
Surely there is need for decreasing consuption, increase production of energy within EU, increase renewables ( for solar, its energy production around 2008 has doubled, still covering only 2% of total energy in EU.) Diversification might help too as we wont rely by only one exporter. Fuel switching too for not depending only by one source of energy. however it isnt really clear what the economic costs are or if its really feasible.
20-20-20 was something good on paper, but few countries made and are making really progress, especially in current times that they face ''more important problems''.

About all this, i am not positive because i see not much progress in this complicated system( kinda i am hoping for the best but expecting the worst). Especially is 'very promising' that in the later climatic talks we still postponed action for 2015 or 2020, especially if we consider we are already 20 + years since talks have started ( but institutions are always positive )
Sorry for my probable mistakes in English

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

dude, I'm afraid you kinda miss an adequate sense of perspective on the matter: when BP had the massive oil spillage happening on the US coast, they shelled out 21 billion dollars (!!!) without the blink of an eye.. you know how many countries' debts you could fix with that amount of money?!

Who says any country should pay just debts of another country. Who derived the benefits from the debt, who made the debt. The indebted country should be responsible for it's own debts.

Governments bow in front of these giants, allowing them to do what they want. That's the real issue, the true nature of capitalism is one where there's no rules nor control.. capitalism is wild and has no mercy, man..

Not true, government doesn't do anything it doesn't want to do. Capitalism is an ideology and there are as many variants of capitalism as breeds of dogs.

Capitalism isn't the problem. The problem is governments don't use their ability to stop abuses, or they wink at them. The media and the governments will point at capitalism, fascism, etc. as the problem. Governments always take the back seat, but they are the movers and shakers that allow or inhibit ideologists of every sort.

The ideologists (environmentalists) don't want a Canadian pipeline into Texas refineries. Government is going along with the ideologists and the Canadians may end up building a pipeline to western Canada and selling the oil to the Chinese.

The ideology isn't the problem unless government doesn't do it's job in restraining it.

No question ideologists influence governments, but government can make it's own choices regardless of the influence. Government has the power to do it's own will.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by ingsoc84

The Germans shutting off their Nuclear reactors? Great..so one day when Russia decides they need to pay more for natural gas/electricity and they don't like the price, the Russians can shut it off during the winter just like they did in the Ukraine a few years ago, that ought to work out well.

Given the fact that in the course of the last forty years any gains made by nuclear power in Germany were privatized while any costs (for security, for exploring potential nuclear waste depots etc) were socialized I really prefer to deal with the russians for their gas than feed this festering pit of "old boy connections" any further. As Bewolf said - even in the darker times of the Cold War the Russians were reliable business partners when it came to purchasing and delivering gas.