New docs on Pearl Harbor attack emerge

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by binky9

And now, back to FDR and some message about the Japanese not liking us.

The US had some intelligence that was passed on to military bases. There was no specific threat mentioned, and the warning was partially based on the observation that the Japanese embassy in Wash DC was burning documents. That is why the planes at Pearl Harbor were lined up wingtip to wingtip, rather than dispersed, so that the guards could protect them from saboteurs. This was seen as the most likely threat. The US had no knowledge that the Japanese fleet was on the way. Given the communications of the day, its hard to believe FDR had anymore knowledge than anyone else on the subject.

Conspiracy junkies just love to take one item, and inflate it into something completely idiotic.

binky9

Binky, I think you're focussing too much on the specific date events than on the whole scenario.

The declarations of surprise and astonishment by the CinC at Pearl Harbour are the perfect example that there was not even the faintest idea among them, and the sabotage thing was just a propaganda aspect. Still, a plethora of intelligence wasn't really enough to give an alert state?
I believe that Washington observed carefully and was well aware of what was happening, but they were just deliberately waiting to be attacked in order to have a valid reason that would shock the public opinion.

...and I hate to say this, but it's pretty much like what happened for 9/11..

[ElAurens]

Complete and utter nonsense.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Complete and utter nonsense.

And why would that be?

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

And why would that be?

Well, he read: 9-11 was a gov. conspiracy.

You wrote: Before 9-11 there were terror warnings

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by swiss

Well, he read: 9-11 was a gov. conspiracy.

You wrote: Before 9-11 there were terror warnings

hehehe too true

[Blakduk]

Regarding the opening comments of this topic- it's interesting to note the belief that the USN was caught completely unaware that an attack was imminent. In fact the USN did have good intelligence that a surprise attack was coming but didnt know where- the reason the Enterprise was not at Pearl Harbour when the attack came was because it was delivering planes to Wake Island where US Navy Intelligence guessed the attack was coming. Fortunately for the Enterprise a storm delayed its return to PH and it missed the attack.
Whenever there is a choice of explanation for extraordinary events between a grand conspiracy and incompetence, i know which is more likely to occur.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Blakduk

Regarding the opening comments of this topic- it's interesting to note the belief that the USN was caught completely unaware that an attack was imminent. In fact the USN did have good intelligence that a surprise attack was coming but didnt know where- the reason the Enterprise was not at Pearl Harbour when the attack came was because it was delivering planes to Wake Island where US Navy Intelligence guessed the attack was coming. Fortunately for the Enterprise a storm delayed its return to PH and it missed the attack.
Whenever there is a choice of explanation for extraordinary events between a grand conspiracy and incompetence, i know which is more likely to occur.

uhmmm although I can accept that a part of the political class of the time was incompetent, I wouldn't say the same of the US military.

I'm not saying that everybody in the chain of command knew it, but I'm wondering whether the consistent and concrete intelligence that had reached the higher spheres of the time was not being deliberately ignored or dismissed..

Come to think of it, it's the perfect plan: first you poke a potential opponent, then you just sit and wait for him to do the first move, possibly a dramatic, coward and big scale attack. Next thing you know you're in the game: industries working around the clock, hundreds of thousands of young men armed and sent to fight, but above all the war is being fought somewhere else, with no damage to cities, factories and population.

America might not have been willing to go to war again, but first thing they did was declaring war to Germany and send troops and ships to Europe.. even in the collective imaginary, it was a war to fight the Nazis, the Pacific war was never as "glamorous" or famous as the one in the ETO, and then again the US war effort was started and ended with Japan..

It's probably because I like playing the devil's advocate, but again I don't think for a minute that the fact that the USA was the only country to actually become the first superpower and gain so much economic and military strength after WW2 was a coincidence..

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Binky, I think you're focussing too much on the specific date events than on the whole scenario.

The declarations of surprise and astonishment by the CinC at Pearl Harbour are the perfect example that there was not even the faintest idea among them, and the sabotage thing was just a propaganda aspect. Still, a plethora of intelligence wasn't really enough to give an alert state?
I believe that Washington observed carefully and was well aware of what was happening, but they were just deliberately waiting to be attacked in order to have a valid reason that would shock the public opinion.

...and I hate to say this, but it's pretty much like what happened for 9/11..