Vision of the future (By Microsoft not raaaid)

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Well I regularly work with Photoshop and Illustrator and have a colleague who works with AutoCAD. We have a division of sound engineer who works with Macs as well and in our professional and corporate experience, we can say that Macs performs better, and I'm not talking merely about top end Mac Pros, even the standard iMacs work a treat compared to the pcs you can assemble for the same money; in addition to that you have a stable OS and a long guarantee.

I have worked in companies using both Macs and Windows PCs, and it really depends on the components build into a PC, also in regards to stability. More so, there are lots of applications that were never ported over to a Mac, unluckily. Broad statements here in regards to the superiourity of one system to another are a bit like agueing Merits of a Porsche Cayenne vs. a Humvee, completly senseless.

No, that's a myth that PC geeks love to think is true, but it's not because hackers don't find Macs appealing, it's cos viruses don't work on Macs, because OS X doesn't work like Windows. You can get certain trojans and ad-wares, but it's really hard because of the way permissions are structured within OS X.

I am argueing here from a middle ground, and I argue against Apple geeks like you the same way I onced argued against Windows geeks. It's just that Windows is out by now and Apple affictionaed have the same high time now here blowing their praise (some of if justified) totally out of proportion.

In regards to the security issues and legends:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08...pard_security/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/...-snow-leopard/

It's down to personal choice, but the whole misconception is that a machine with a greater chance to be tweaked shouldn't be put in the hands of people that don't know how to handle it. Take the virus examples again: viruses do spread because of a combination of poor security in terms of OS and bad policies or IT habits of average users. Apple took these factors into account and developed a fenced system that is not susceptible to these issues.
As a consequence, you have a stable machine, which reliable performance and that doesn't let you down.
The main difference is that Micro$oft develops a generic OS to be thrown to the lions, whereas Apple develops a complete package, which now is even capable to run the Windows OS (and performing better with those too).

Viruses are one problem. They are not the end of the line. I never had a Virus problem with a Mac, very true. But then again I only had a Virus problem once in 15 years of using Windows. Not using pron sites too much really helps, btw.

You probably never looked into a Mac Pro. That is hardware porn at its finest

True, I didn't as of yet

things have changed, and keep on changing: Apple is now ditching the concept of the mouse in favour of the Magic Trackpad , which together with a pen tablet is all I use for work. The simple genius of multi-touching is incredibly useful.

I have my Wacom sitting right next to me and it's a great device, no doubt. I am not a fan of touchpads in their current form, however, so I am not convived about this one.

you probably never worked with Apps. They generated an incredible amount of work and income for a lot of new companies, and many apps are for free. A developers' package is not very expensive and you can really make a lot of profit. The fact that apps are monitored by Apple is a further example of how they care about quality standards.

not worked with apps yet? you do want to be taken serious, yes? maybe you should extend the favor to others? apps are neat little tings, but they are just programs like all others put into a userfriendly GUI. That's all there is to it. Monitoring, btw, is a many ways street. Figure it out yourself.

Apple is a giant, they have more liquidity than the US of A in their bank. They're also winning causes for patent infringements done by other companies, because they worked hard on having their patenting done properly. They invested a lot in it, and it's paying back. As for design, it's questionable, designers continuously take inspiration from the past, so nothing wrong with that.

Call me a cyncic, but in the US of A, in court this really is all that counts. I am not saying there is something wrong in the apporach of Apple, but it's nothing breathtaking either, as the argument goes.

there's quite a difference: Apple delivers a complete, functioning package, Windows sells a ($hitty) OS, some applications and crappy peripherals. Their only advantage is that they arrived on the market before, and were cunning enough to steal key ideas and establish themselves into the market to become what they are today: an over-inflated, over-paid, overrated fart.

LoL, be careful to not let that argument come back at you in a couple of years, the roots for that are already laid. Btw, this is exactly why I think you lack objectivity in this debate. Apple has been around now for a very long time. Despite that they never really managed to be a serious contender. Why do you think is that? Fanboyism never is a good sparring partner in an arguement.

You're completely missing on the actual business value here: time.
We ran a survey at work over a month's time, checking workflows of people that worked on same roles but with different platforms (say PC vs Mac).
It turned out that people working on Mac had a higher efficiency rate of circa 35%, this due simply to the time saved by a faster and less buggy machine, less need for costly IT support and generic compatibility issues with peripherals.

This is the first argument here to be actually taken serious, but Macs and PCs are not only precision mashines geared for only once purpose in any given company. In fact, many companies "need" Windows because they have to utilize their machines for in parts very different tasks. Esepcially new companies do a lot better with Windows simply because it is a more flexible machine. I am not declarting your argument wrong here, but it is a very narrow view for very specialised taks. And let's not forget the private users, which probably require even more flexebility.


All that said, I am not going to argue against a man on a mission, so you will have to go it alone from here. I can just advise to get a bit more distance towards the topic.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

I have worked in companies using both Macs and Windows PCs, and it really depends on the components build into a PC, also in regards to stability. More so, there are lots of applications that were never ported over to a Mac, unluckily. Broad statements here in regards to the superiourity of one system to another are a bit like agueing Merits of a Porsche Cayenne vs. a Humvee, completly senseless.

Sorry man, but it still sounds like you never actually worked on a Mac for a prolonged period of time. I have met thousands of professionals who work with both, and not ONE has said "PC is better than Mac", not one.

I am argueing here from a middle ground, and I argue against Apple geeks like you the same way I onced argued against Windows geeks. It's just that Windows is out by now and Apple affictionaed have the same high time now here blowing their praise (some of if justified) totally out of proportion.

I'm sorry, but I don't think of myself as an Apple geek, I work continuously with both, but only one aggravates the hell out of me with recurrent issues, drivers, updates, wifi problems, compatibility issues, security issues, viruses, etc..

In regards to the security issues and legends:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08...pard_security/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/...-snow-leopard/

Viruses are one problem. They are not the end of the line. I never had a Virus problem with a Mac, very true. But then again I only had a Virus problem once in 15 years of using Windows. Not using pron sites too much really helps, btw.

You didn't, but you're a top end user with PC skills, the problem again is that a machine with a susceptible OS like Windows is given to people with little or no IT understanding.
Symantec and many other anti-virus companies make billions by exploiting this deliberate security gap left by Windows (and I say deliberate because once they understood the problem they should have addressed the issue with their newer OS.. and to add insult to injury Microsoft bought shares of Symantec!).

I have my Wacom sitting right next to me and it's a great device, no doubt. I am not a fan of touchpads in their current form, however, so I am not convived about this one.

I was skeptical too, but then I tried it and can't do without now! It's impressive stuff!

not worked with apps yet? you do want to be taken serious, yes? maybe you should extend the favor to others? apps are neat little tings, but they are just programs like all others put into a userfriendly GUI. That's all there is to it. Monitoring, btw, is a many ways street. Figure it out yourself.

Have you actually ever worked to the development of an app? I have, and helped others too. And for a 1000 crappy apps that aren't worth a penny there are 10000 that actually are of some use. Some of the apps we have are revolutionary to say the least, but then again, if you don't try them you don't understand them.
The key of a successful app is not just the program per se, but the fact that it's given a platform with SO much potential because of the way it's built.
Microscopic gyros, HD cameras, retina screen, motion sensors: an iPhone is still the most incredible device on the market of mobile phones.

Call me a cyncic, but in the US of A, in court this really is all that counts. I am not saying there is something wrong in the apporach of Apple, but it's nothing breathtaking either, as the argument goes.

I rest my case that you don't make use of Apple products, otherwise you would understand what I talk about. And believe me, their potential is immense and the more into it you are, the more you can get out of it.
My network and IT setup at home is a typical example of the efficiency of Apple stuff: I have all my music and movies on a mini server, connected to an apple TV and a stereo, which I can control via iTunes either with an iPad or with an iPhone, playing different music or movies around the house, using devices that are constantly offered new, incredible potential by means of quality apps.
You can't remain indifferent to such incredible quality and flexibility.

LoL, be careful to not let that argument come back at you in a couple of years, the roots for that are already laid. Btw, this is exactly why I think you lack objectivity in this debate. Apple has been around now for a very long time. Despite that they never really managed to be a serious contender. Why do you think is that? Fanboyism never is a good sparring partner in an arguement.

I'm very objective man, cos I use both. Again, Microsoft arrived earlier and conquered the market cos it was the first to introduce the revolution, Apple had its ups and downs and it's only in the middle '00s that it became really competitive. You're running by '90s stereotypes I'm afraid (the single button thing you mentioned is an example of it).

This is the first argument here to be actually taken serious, but Macs and PCs are not only precision mashines geared for only once purpose in any given company. In fact, many companies "need" Windows because they have to utilize their machines for in parts very different tasks. Esepcially new companies do a lot better with Windows simply because it is a more flexible machine. I am not declarting your argument wrong here, but it is a very narrow view for very specialised taks. And let's not forget the private users, which probably require even more flexebility.

The need is based on pre-conceptions. The Intel based Macs now can do anything a PC can do.
And private users don't need more flexibility, only game nerds like us lot do, but if games were developed for more stable machines, imagine how quick game developing would be, and how much better things would work. Think of all the problems the guys here are having in terms of setting, beta issues and solutions etc...
Again, videogaming on home devices is about to die, soon it will be only a case of cloud gaming anyway.

All that said, I am not going to argue against a man on a mission, so you will have to go it alone from here. I can just advise to get a bit more distance towards the topic.

I'm no man on a mission, I am just sharing my experience as someone who worked on PCs and Macs for 15 years. I just can't stand people that slag Macs or Apple just because they've been brainwashed and never actually used one.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Sorry man, but it still sounds like you never actually worked on a Mac for a prolonged period of time. I have met thousands of professionals who work with both, and not ONE has said "PC is better than Mac", not one.

That is the problem of the debate. I have never said the PC is "better". I merely have taken a bit away from the "Apple is better" crowds. Your insistence of seeing this an attack on Apple and it's unreflected, very one sided defense and promotion is what lets me think that this debate is mood. This is also reflected by the rest of your comment here.

Believe me, I would not have charged in here if your views were in any way balanced.

And let's just say I am not looking into MP3 connectivity throughout the house as my primary OS purpose, I also could tell you a whole lot about 3D modelling requirements and specialized hard and software as we are at it, but I fear it would be wasted anyways.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

That is the problem of the debate. I have never said the PC is "better". I merely have taken a bit away from the "Apple is better" crowds. Your insistence of seeing this an attack on Apple and it's unreflected, very one sided defense and promotion is what lets me think that this debate is mood. This is also reflected by the rest of your comment here.

Believe me, I would not have charged in here if your views were in any way balanced.

And let's just say I am not looking into MP3 connectivity throughout the house as my primary OS purpose, I also could tell you a whole lot about 3D modelling requirements and specialized hard and software as we are at it, but I fear it would be wasted anyways.

I'm sorry, but Apple is better, and my opinion is based on 15 years of use of both, ranging on a wide set of applications and hardware.

Without even going into the whole OS debate, there is not one Windows based PC brand (i.e. Dell, VAIO etc..) which can deliver quality products superior to Apple one. Just to give you an example, I'm typing this thing from a Macbook Air, by far the most revolutionary laptop ever, and when I see people waving their chunky Alienware or Acer or Vaio laptops, all I can think of is "why, when you can have one of this light, thin, dependable and performing macbooks?"

The mp3 connectivity as you call it was just a mere example, and feel free to tell me about any 3d specialised hardware and software, I'm not an expert but neither totally ignorant on the subject. Even in that field, you won't find a machine that has such quality, performance and above all moddability and longevity than a Mac Pro.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry, but Apple is better, and my opinion is based on 15 years of use of both, ranging on a wide set of applications and hardware.

Without even going into the whole OS debate, there is not one Windows based PC brand (i.e. Dell, VAIO etc..) which can deliver quality products superior to Apple one. Just to give you an example, I'm typing this thing from a Macbook Air, by far the most revolutionary laptop ever, and when I see people waving their chunky Alienware or Acer or Vaio laptops, all I can think of is "why, when you can have one of this light, thin, dependable and performing macbooks?"

The mp3 connectivity as you call it was just a mere example, and feel free to tell me about any 3d specialised hardware and software, I'm not an expert but neither totally ignorant on the subject. Even in that field, you won't find a machine that has such quality, performance and above all moddability and longevity than a Mac Pro.

lol, heavens, stern, take a deep breath, lean back, have a beer, relax and read again what you just wrote here. This could be right out of "the onion". It is so over the top =)

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

lol, heavens, stern, take a deep breath, lean back, have a beer, relax and read again what you just wrote here. This could be right out of "the onion". It is so over the top =)

I think you're exaggerating things a bit man, I gave my opinion as user of both systems, and I reckon Apple is overall better and more value for money, end of.

I seem to understand you don't have much experience with the Apple stuff, still you feel like making fun of others that do and tell you "dude, it's not just better, it's miles better".

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I think you're exaggerating things a bit man, I gave my opinion as user of both systems, and I reckon Apple is overall better and more value for money, end of.

I seem to understand you don't have much experience with the Apple stuff, still you feel like making fun of others that do and tell you "dude, it's not just better, it's miles better".

I am daily exposed to apple products, believe me. There is not much way around it these days, this way or another. The problem is that you picked out certain criteria you liked, and only those criteria count and are the most important. I do not have to be an expert on apple products to differ between somebody with an open mind and one that knows everything already before the debate even begun. No offense.

[Oldschool61]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry, but Apple is better, and my opinion is based on 15 years of use of both, ranging on a wide set of applications and hardware.

Without even going into the whole OS debate, there is not one Windows based PC brand (i.e. Dell, VAIO etc..) which can deliver quality products superior to Apple one. Just to give you an example, I'm typing this thing from a Macbook Air, by far the most revolutionary laptop ever, and when I see people waving their chunky Alienware or Acer or Vaio laptops, all I can think of is "why, when you can have one of this light, thin, dependable and performing macbooks?"

The mp3 connectivity as you call it was just a mere example, and feel free to tell me about any 3d specialised hardware and software, I'm not an expert but neither totally ignorant on the subject. Even in that field, you won't find a machine that has such quality, performance and above all moddability and longevity than a Mac Pro.

I thought Jobs died a week or so??