Spit IIa

[IvanK]

CWM Yes but see if you can find another source for E models getting 500Kmh at sea level, that is imo an exceptional event. Just about every ref I have seen is in the 460Kmh or so sea level area.

Even here the Swiss tests show 460-470 at sea level:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...109E_J347.html

And the French tests only get 500Kmh (clapped out E I can here some saying at around 3000m, though the other numbers compare quiet well with the L.Dv.556/3 for the E-1, -3 stuff quoted in this thread.





This all becomes a circular tail chase depending on the references you choose and or trust. The majority are in the L.Dv.556/3 type performance area.

[JG53Frankyboy]

perhaps we have to know if these speedtests were made with DB601A-1 or DB601Aa...and wich engines drives the CoD 109s

[IvanK]

You cant have enough Graphs



The chart below I have no idea on its origin/provenance but post for further info.

[CWMV]

Indeed.
My only problem with the french numbers is that they had to run the low altitude tests with rads open due to cooling issues from not using the correct fluids. Especially when you look at the 5000M+ (Where the rads were closed) numbers that are well within 5% of the German numbers I posted.
Do I think that the rads being full open could take 40kph off the top end-you bet!

British tests with the same aircraft mirror those of the French, off the top of my head 16000ft was 355mph=571kph.

So weve got an aircraft that performs the same as German tests when you close the rads, and then is slower when you open them..seems logical to me lol.

And the Swiss tests were of an aircraft that had already gone through a third of its operational lifespan (if I recall 111 hours at test, retired at 350ish). In addition to this Kurfurst has summed up my thoughts on J-347 fairly well:

"Comparison of the speed results with Bf 109E prototype V15a's test report show remarkable similarity in the top speed achieved at altitude with the original VDM propeller of J-347 (572 vs. 564 km/h at rated altitude), especially when taking into account that J-347 already saw considerably use. However the low level speeds diverge greatly (498 vs 464 km/h at 0m altitude). However the low-level performance of V15a with the Höhenlader (high altitude supercharger speed, or 'F.S gear' in British terms) shows good agreement with J-347 at both high- and low altitudes.
This would suggest that J-347`s level speed results were achieved with the Höhenlader in operation, and the appropriate Bodenlader (low-altitude supercharger speeds, or 'M.S. gear' in British terms) was not used to record the results, therefore full performance of the aircraft was not reached below ca. 3500 meter altitude."

Regardless, the numbers call for a +/- 5%, so really Id be happy with anything from 470-500.
Ideally, to me anyway, 490 would be taken as a base, and a random power fluctuation within 5% would be applied to every 109, but I'm not sure the sim is there yet...

And yes, we all have our favored sources, but at least in this thread they were posted, and we can argue about the numbers rather than what we think the aircraft should do.

I suppose that's better...lol.

[JG53Frankyboy]

wondering about these supercharger comments having the DB601's automatic variable supercharger system in mind ?!

[IvanK]

Some more data we must include the TSAGI stuff for balance ... though I think its a bit skewed to the slow side ... differrent time and place... got to make the local product look good perhaps



And another that looks good with all sorts of detail but no idea on its provenance so caution on its use. Looks like some engineers calculations and extrapolations rather than actual test data ... just another of the countless snippets on my HD

[David198502]

this thread is quite interesting and provides a lot of source for the arguments taken.
but i have a question,...did luthier ever post a statement about their FMs?...whether they think they should rework them, or if they are happy with the current state?
can we expect them to be finetuned?

[IvanK]

You can expect them to be fine tuned ... that I know for a fact .

[JG52Krupi]

Yes somewhere he states that they want to get the game basics working right (performance etc) before dealing with FM issues. Annoying yes, but it makes sense.

[David198502]

Originally Posted by IvanK

You can expect them to be fine tuned ... that I know for a fact .

good to know....the FMs definitely need to be tuned.
i think that there is a major consensus that all of the planes are undermodeled except the spitII.at least the majority of the community seems to be of that opinion, including myself.

one interesting situation i had today on atag server....i flew one sortie which lasted over more than one hour with the E1.it was really immersive...i took of with max fuel and flew pretty careful, knowing that im pretty heavy with that load.at the time when i left France and headed to England, i spottet a Wellington.it was a single plane and the gunners didnt shoot at me when i began a shallow dive on it...so i assumed it to be flown by a human.at the right distance i gave a 2 to 3seconds burst on the right wing and the engine caught fire.it also took a few hits on the rudder and finally it spiraled down from 2k straight into the channel in front of the french shoreline

....then i continued my flight to england.over the airfield west of dover i saw a spit approaching slightly above my alt directly towards me(so its heading was exact the opposite of mine)...i decided not to climb immediately, with the result that my oponent didnt see me.i stayed a little longer in level flight until we passed each other. i watched the spit, and it stayed on its course, so i proceeded a really slow immelmann, to gain as much altitude as possible while changing direction....i climbed until a stall, which was recovered quickly.then the hunt began.
the first burst hit its wings and didnt really damage it.i was expecting to see a really hard turn so i zoomed away, but realised that my oponent didnt really want to survive and only pulled turns, which i was sure that i could follow.so i dived again, and this time stayed on his six.looking at his behaviour, i gained confidence to win the fight, so my hand remained calm while i shot really well-aimed bursts at his engine and cockpit, until he went down in flames....i almost smelled the other spit which gained vicinity on me...i knew i was down low and lost speed as well due to the turns i made, so i hit the Notleistung, closed the rads as much as possible without overheating and focused on my rpms only adjusting with the pp...the spit couldnt follow my slight climb at 400kph, but it managed to damage my left aileron.when i realised that i was out of immediate danger, i took a short look at the left and right, to see if i was loosing any liquid.i was happy that my crate seemed to be leakproof and the gauges showed its normal values...so i turned slightly to the right, to gain sight on my pursuer, staying in a shallow climb.when i considered myself to be in the better energie condition, i began a really steep climb and turned right, pulling my nose slowly towards the hunter....but at that point the tables were already turned, and the hunter was suddenly the prey.this spit turned hard so i boomed and zoomed and finally i had my revenge when he bailed out....
at this time i decided to fly home, considering that my aileron was damaged and that i shot the wingpositioned mgs empty at my second fight of the sortie.so i crossed the channel at 3k.when i was half way home, i saw a black silhouette heading from france to england, certainly 500meters above me.it was far away and i couldnt identify the UFO, so i zoomed in....it was a hurri.
first i thought it didnt spot me, so i banked right and began to climb, when i suddenly saw that it began to loop,followed by half a roll.it did spot me, and now it had the advantage.i immediately pushed the stick as hard as possible to dive,but that wasnt enough.he gained on me although i already had 700kph and feared to loose my wings(i heard that with this beta beta patch it is indeed possible to loose wings, but didnt encounter it myself yet), so i slowly pulled the stick and hit the Notleistung while listening to the scary noises my plane made at this state(love the new sounds!) when i leveled out, i could see that the hurri was at a greater distance again but still at higher alt, and after a few seconds it came closer and took a few hits at my rads...he really wanted me to go down.and everytime i tried to gain only a little altitude,he came closer.so it was a row of slight climbs and dives and really wide turns trying to escape his rounds.this pursuit lastet certainly 10 minutes, and i feared that my engine could stop every second until i finally managed to be at the same height and same speed.i then pulled the stick until i climbed vertically and focused on my rpms, to get the most out of it(seems to be a successful manouver against british fighters except the spitII) until the nose tilted towards the ground again.now i had the advantage again, but i had to make a decision...going home safely or hunt that bastard and letting him know that i wasnt easy meat.

i looked again at my rads, and they stopped leaking(do the tanks and other systems which carry liquid have the ability of self-sealing?) and also the gauges still showed an healthy engine, so i decided to earn another kill marking.meanwhile we both have drifted to the far west of the map near the english coast.when he realised that he lost his advantage, he headed back east to the airfield near Dover in a shallow dive.i was expecting to catch him, but that didnt happen.slowly but continuously he became harder to spot....he outdived me,... i have to confess slowly, but nevertheless he managed to do so.
he finally crashlanded on the airfield, because he approached too fast and lost his landing gear....normally i dont do that, but in this situation i decided to give him a short burst, just to let him know that he didnt win that fight.so i hit his fuselage with a few bullets and then finally went home to france.

after i landed safely, i thought that this sortie was certainly the best flightsim expirience i have ever had.really immersive, full of tension,fear and relief.
i lighted a cigarette and thanked my oponent for that really hard fight.unfortunately he didnt answer, propably because he doesnt have the chatbar opened.after the sortie it would have been really cool to be able to have a look at my plane from an outside view.

what im trying to say with this really long post, is that the FMs really need to be reworked.while i had no problem to outrun the spits, the hurri was as fast as me.in real level flight, without loosing any alt,and without WEP i can get the E1 and E3 to 460kph(since the latest beta beta patch i dont use the E4 anymore because of its bugged pp)
i dont claim to be an ace, but im confident with the handling of the bfs.i know how to get the most out of them, and manage to slowly outrun most of my comrades up in the air due to correct rpm,oil and water rads and pp settings.
it doesnt happen often, but this sortie was the second time, that a hurri gained on me while i tried to escape.
it is definitely possible that a good hurri pilot can get as fast as one in a bf.