Commercials pilots: stall warning, and they pull up!

[TomcatViP]

With all my respect Sir stalling an airplane does not makes you feel like over speeding an airplane if you are listening to what your old trusty calibrated stomach can tell you

For what I eared and read so far (thx for all the good links provided) those guys where falling down at 60kt 25+deg nose up. Next time you are on a roler-coaster, shut your eyes and see what kind of sensations you get (huuuu we are going dooooooooooooowwn, are we ?!!)

PS : this is a good thread

The backgrd of the question as all have said is that we have system monitoring technicians behind the yokes that are applying lessons learnt at school stamped by sophisticated diploma were we shld hve passionated (or at least commited) individuals.

A simple GA flight logged hours rules per month shld hve been enough to prevent such drama (speculation and hypothesis) since it is now generally admitted that the thousands of hours logged in airliner does account only for a fraction of actual yokes handling time what you need in such critical situations.

But perhaps the downfall in pilot salary is the key here.

[Ploughman]

I think a factor in the pilot's response to a stall warning is that below a certain speed their's no stall warning as any speed reading is invalid, then if you accelerate you get the stall warning from something like 60 knots through to the aircraft leaving the stall. In this instance the pilot in control seems to have lowered the nose, accelerated the aircraft to the point where the stall warning actuates, then perhaps thought he was entering a stall by putting the nose down, and pulled back up again, dropping the speed into the invalid range, and causing the stall warning to stop. The pilot was flying the plane to avoid the stall warning, rather than flying the plane to avoid the stall.

[Iku_es]

The investigators have not yet determined the cause of the accident, so please don't be so fast calling the pilots incompetents (they weren't). And you should read what are the requirements to be hired by this company.
And the wikipedia is very usefull, but unreliable.

(Before being asked: I'm not an ATPL. Only a PPL that loves airplanes)

The Airbus aircrafts have a lot of safety mechanisms. One of them overrides the pilot inputs and stabilizes the plane if the pilot pushes the flying envelope outside safe limits.
For instance: Overspeeding, Dangerous AoA - Stall, Dangerous bank angle (more than 60º) ...
But these safety mechanism are disconnected if the pitot or the static ports are blocked. (By the way, airbuses don't have stick shakers as they don't have yokes. Only sidesticks )

As BlackDog said, they probably had conflicting instrument readouts and if the altimeter was also malfunctioning ... the have very little chances,
IFR flying conditions, at night, without realiable instrument readouts...

They may also suffered of "Tunel vision", I'm not saying that it wasn't also pilots fault. But they didn't pull the nose up because they were retarded, as is suggested in the original article.

I can only guess the fear and confusion they felt in that cockpit...

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding (Master Alarm)
ECAM RED MESSAGE: OVERSPEED
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding (Master Alarm Again)
ECAM RED MESSAGE: STALL
Repeat several times
GPWS Warning: WUUUP WUUUP TERRAIN .... PULL UP
Ding Ding Ding Ding
- Crash - and no refly button ...

Example of Master Alarm, and ECAM Messages: 0:12 onwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QcOgLdwg9w

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

With all my respect Sir stalling an airplane does not makes you feel like over speeding an airplane if you are listening to what your old trusty calibrated stomach can tell you

For what I eared and read so far (thx for all the good links provided) those guys where falling down at 60kt 25+deg nose up. Next time you are on a roler-coaster, shut your eyes and see what kind of sensations you get (huuuu we are going dooooooooooooowwn, are we ?!!)

PS : this is a good thread

The backgrd of the question as all have said is that we have system monitoring technicians behind the yokes that are applying lessons learnt at school stamped by sophisticated diploma were we shld hve passionated (or at least commited) individuals.

A simple GA flight logged hours rules per month shld hve been enough to prevent such drama (speculation and hypothesis) since it is now generally admitted that the thousands of hours logged in airliner does account only for a fraction of actual yokes handling time what you need in such critical situations.

But perhaps the downfall in pilot salary is the key here.

I'm sorry Sir, with all my respect I strongly dissagree with you:

1. The fact is that in IFR conditions, you cant rely on your senses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation

I have experienced this in a PA28 as a passenger, and is very, very disturbing. Without watching the instruments, you can't tell after a couple of manouvers if you are climbing, falling, upside down.
I encourage you to try it, if you have the oportunity. I was amazed the first time.

2. Those technicians have allowed for instance aircraft landings every 2 minutes in the same runway, decreased the chances of accident, etc

3. GA flight logged hours rules are great for VFR, and lightweight aircrafts (Single or twin engined).
Airliners are flown following procedures, not following your guts (sorry I don't know the english expresion for that)

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

The problem (at least according to what an airliner pilot told me) is not so much why they did what they did, but the fact that too many young pilots in airliners are conditioned to go through the motions mechanically and rely a lot on automation, instead of flying the plane first and foremost.

Todays comercial flying is all about following procedures.
Most of the accidents happen because procedures are not followed.
I have a romantic idea of flying by the feel of the aircraft too, but I have to say, that following aircraft procedures has been proven as the safest way. Old hands hate this idea of course

Watch this video as example. They seem Robots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfVPRS9b9Y

Life is easy for us armchair combat pilots