Shaman Karrakh quest chain..?! (Spoilers)

[Madstrike]

Vulture, again thanks for the tips. Ive read the thread of "cruel haas" u have posted, very good and variety of opinions there.
Onto the dragons thing, I managed to grab the whip, but I dont have the dagger in my game as I already have scanned, Im basically playing the girls without it, and they suck against black dragons.

Im even considering dumping them and going for another set up, ive found rather odd items:2x batons(humans have no powerhouse like the paladin in AP imho), elven crown, telecopic sight, how about this: elves+hunters(also got silver horn) with a combination of 2x human units(dunno) +demons???(maybe fit skellie archers somewhere in here?). Also might have to keep with griffins or somethingelse as my timenback is rly underdeveloped as it is. Basically my weapons suck(Im using the dragon slayer sword, other than that I have the runic sword), I have no artifacts other than the telecopic sight, and the eye of the storm, lots of regalia(think that would make me marry the elf girl for the slots, but she is not rly appealing), and the rest is not worth mentioning.

My attack is subpar(9 with the whip, or 12 with dragonslayer), defense is ok(14), and int not high enough to nuke down some big stacks..., also lvl 23, 15k ldr.

My problem isnt so much killing the black dragons(royal snakes make short work of them if I need to), its just killing them before they do anything, because even if I put my griffins(or whatever target) on the middle of the field or even right in front of them,they will ignore them and go for other units(they love faeries and archers), thats why Im placing traps lately.Problems appear when there are multiple stacks of them along with ranged units.
Ill be able to max onslaught once I trade my map with the queen but I wont be able to put points into dark commander past lvl1 for now(so no init boost for the skellie archers), I do have the regalia that boosts 1-3 units +1 init, and I have the mask of pandemonic, which I havent upgraded(-1 init to enemy) yet(that will do the trick for the first turn).

ps: I just realized I have cloak of shadows+vampire ring is in a shop, should I use them(or ancient vampires at least)?

[Vulture]

@Helios: you see. In the end, everything comes down to playstyle, given items and availability of troops as I said right in the beginning

@madstrike: hence my recommendation to use Icy Thorns. The thing is: the AI always attack the target they can
a) reach with the fewest number of turns
b) take down the biggest percentage of total leadership with.
c) reduce the most incoming damage with.


That will always come down to level 1 units, or the lowest levelled unit you have in your setup because they have the least defense and health, thus ending up dropping fast. That means Skeleton Archers, Lake Fairies, Sprites, Dryads, Bowmen and so on. Therefore: put everything but your tanks behind ice thorns (except maybe a durable melee striker unit but place that out of reach of the Black Dragon) and make sure, with all force, that you have ******* FIRST initiative. It's vital and there is no way around it.

About Ancient Vampires: they are my #1 choice as secondary tanks or as primary tanks on icy grounds (Demon gets defense penalty). And of course my tanks when I play undead only (which I never play out because I always end up adding Inquisitors, Demons, Shamans, Demonesses or Bowmen occasionally in the end). With enough Atk they beome not only killing machines but also sustain themselves easily through the Life Drain ability in bat form so that you can use Time Back for other things.
Absolutely perfect would be if your game had Ancient Vampires and Ancient Vampire Bats because you can have both. You just can't transform them on the battlefield for they will be out of control because you'll have twice your leadership in Ancient Vampires or Bats respectively.
But beware that Life Drain ofc only works against the living. Undeads and plants excluded. And also beware of no retaliation units for retaliation is a big factor in sustaining numbers through Life Drain. I've seen a huge stack of Bats chopped down by a stack of archers, a 2,500 stack of royal snakes and 3k Scoffer Imps in one turn.
The ring is nice but there's usually better stuff than that. iirc it just pushes their max hp which is nice but not what you need. Distance and strategy are your defense and health bar. Not defence and health.

[Madstrike]

hmm, I might try the ancient vampires and see what happens, they seem like decent strikers, only problem I see is their low speed, in bat form they have great speed and init but not so hot damage, would it be better using them than royal snakes?(these are my favorites to pwn some black/red dragons other than the skellie archers). Also considering I have 2 batons, do u think its a good idea to get the elf wife(more regalia slots) and use some human unit. Im having a hard time considering human units, they all look subpar(the strikers dont do much damage) so I dont see how they would rly benefit from the +2 morale. Knights are good, but they are way too slow... maybe horseman?

[Vulture]

Knights are only an option if you can afford to teleport them. The Baton is for ldr anyway. The +1 human morale might as well not be on it and nobody would care.

I can't tell you if Royal Snakes will work better for you than Ancient Vampires. Try it and see for yourself.
Don't worry about the speed, you'll never move them in human form anyway. Transforming into Bat form costs no Action Points. And whoever told you the Bat damage isn't good is probably doing it wrong ^^

[Helios]

@ Vulture: In your Cruel Haas topic as a Paladin was that on Impossible? I just wondered since you mention you made it to level 29 in that thread with only one level of learning. I've been trying to pin down how much EXP boost was needed to hit 30 on Impossible. Do you recall if you ever used the Tactics Treatise in that playthrough or other boosts like KotL?

Edit: I've been looking at the screenshots of the high score thread to try and see how much skill investment is needed for EXP boosts, and am shocked at the stats some of these people had! A Mage with 50 Int and 22,000 Leadership!? I see mostly how he got the Int, but I have no idea how he also got Leadership that high. I checked and it was on Impossible. Amazing. And I thought I had a godly item setup this time through!

[msp]

Here you're talking about beating Cruel Haas, right? Why aren't dragons used against him? "If you can't beat them, join them", right?

[Vulture]

@Helios: nevermind the highscore thread. 95% of the posts there are fake. Stuff that is completely impossible. The screens are real, the games were not. There are enough mods that can change anything you want.
The Cruel Haas battle was back in the days when I started. I think it was on hard. I mean it was easy to win ofc but I play no loss campaigns only and I hate spending more than 15 turns to recover. That's what my problem was. I felt like I had a fundamental problem.
I never use exp boosters. Only when I find one early on and have an unused slot. In that particular game I definitely did not use one.

@msp: Dragons are 50%-80% resistant to fire and/or magic. Using dragons against them is thus utterly futile. With the exception of Emerald Greens. But then again, an AI dragon will NEVER go for your Emerald Greens and since their raw damage is pretty unamazing there's no point in bringing some to that battle. This is arguable tho. I don't claim absolute truth on that.

[Madstrike]

I know you reckon I should try ancient vampires, but is there a reason to use those over regular vampires? I mean the ldr per damage is better on the lower ranked vampires, only advantage in bat mode in favor of ancient is that it has slightly better speed and init(and attack). Also using them should I use them always in bat mode, or sometimes in vampire mode, then switch to bat after the battle is almost finished to resurrect some troops?

So what did u use in the end in that Haas battle, I know you were positive on LF, sprites, skellie archers, and demons, but were uncertain on the fifth unit. I could maybe think of a few of possibilities: knights(loads of dragons), ancient vampires, royal snakes, inquisitors, archidemons.

[Vulture]

Why does everybody keep saying Archidemons ? It's Archdemons.

I don't remember what I ended up using but I definitely didn't use Sprites/Lake Fairies and Dryads. I probably got Ancient Vamps and Knights as I always do for the final fight. And I think Emeralds.

As for your question why AVs are better than Vs: you said it yourself. Speed, init (this is vital, with Zombie Rina as a wife and Dark Commander they always go before everything else incl. Black Dragons), Atk plus hp and Defense. You don't really need more reasons to prefer one unit over the other.
As for the usage: that depends on if you use them as tanks or as damage dealers.
If you use them as tanks it's pretty clear. You turn them into bats right away, bring them in and turn them back into humanoid form (will end your turn) and cast a protective spell on them. Or Target if you need. Enemy bashes them in humanoid form, one eats retaliation. In the next round you pause them, take the second beating and then turn them into bats and attack the opponent against who you can do the most damage (=most hp leeched). By the end of this turn your damage dealers should have diminished the opponent enough so you can remain in Bat form. In regular fights with a Warrior you can actually always keep them in Bat form because your Atk is so high that their damage will always restore them. In case of emergency you can still Phantom them and watch the idiots bash the Phantom AVs.

If you use them as damage dealers you just move them in humanoid form after the tank and do the high init strategy where you pause them so they act as the last in the turn. Kill something. In the beginning of the next turn they're first to strike again. Practically a double strike without the enemy having a chance to counteract.