Shaman Karrakh quest chain..?! (Spoilers)

[Vulture]

1. veteran orcs don't always retaliate. The only counter-attack an enemies retaliation. Once.
2. This thread has died more than 2 years ago. Nobody follows it anymore.
3. Between the Royal Griffins and the Veteran Orc there are about 3 or 4 better tanking units and some - depending on setup and talents - are even better than the Royal Griffin in the first place. Demons and Giants for example are better targets for "Target" because of their huge defense bonuses and in the case of the Demon because of the infinite retaliation and extreme damage output against lvl 1-3 units.

[Helios]

I see the dead thread alert, but I've been meaning to ask this: Giants can't be used with Target, can they? They're level 5 creatures, and ineligible, correct? I've seen them mentioned with Target several times on the forums, but they're level 5 for me. Were they upgraded in a patch or something?

[Vulture]

Why would level 5 creatures be exempt from the Target spell as a carrier ?
The level restriction only applies to the enemy ! Opposing level 5 creatures won't choose the troop you cast 'Target' on. Who you cast it on is completely free and without restrictions (except Black Dragons because of their magic immunity).

[Helios]

Wow, thanks! I thought that was a way to nerf the spell so level 5 units weren't too overpowered. I don't know why I thought that. I wish I knew that several games ago!

[Madstrike]

Originally Posted by Vulture

1. veteran orcs don't always retaliate. The only counter-attack an enemies retaliation. Once.
2. This thread has died more than 2 years ago. Nobody follows it anymore.
3. Between the Royal Griffins and the Veteran Orc there are about 3 or 4 better tanking units and some - depending on setup and talents - are even better than the Royal Griffin in the first place. Demons and Giants for example are better targets for "Target" because of their huge defense bonuses and in the case of the Demon because of the infinite retaliation and extreme damage output against lvl 1-3 units.

oh well, I guess u covered it all. I didnt try the veterans as targets, just thought they would work as (furious) guess I was wrong, in that case they dont seem too hot indeed. Never tried giants either, they seem like a good option. I liked using target on paladins though, since they have high ass defense(mastery) and high physical res, not to mention they can take care of their own damages and also heal others, and give others action points. Only downside to using them as targets is they dont have the furious ability, or some other ability that damages loads of enemies(like giants), also their init and speed is quite low, but that is ofc expected otherwise they would be way too powerful. Demons do seem pretty awesome, but I would need those skills from the mind skill tree to make it ok(morale decrease) with my other non demon units. In your opinion what would be best option for target if using the girls army?

[Vulture]

@Madstrike: well first of all, this is the KB:TL forum. There are no paladins as troops.
Secondly, if you're a paladin as a class it is very much recommended to get tolerance, unless of course you're playing with units that don't mind Demons to begin with. Like Animals, Undeads, and some creatures like Cyclopses, Evil Beholders and stuff. I usually play with an Undead/Demon combo + Inquisitors so I don't really need tolerance. I just cope with the deduction of stats for the inquisitors. They're not damage dealers to begin with and if they get targetted I made a mistake in my strategy, so the lower hp shouldn't matter.

By girls' army I suppose you mean Lake Fairies, Sprites, Dryads, Demonesses and stuff. Firstly I'd never go with a 5/5 girls army but with a 3/5 (S, LF, D), added Demons and Skeleton Archers and sometimes swap Dryads with Inquisitors or Black/Green Dragons. I never saw the point in 3 or more melee units that have no tanking features. 2 melee strikers are enough, plus an offensively gifted tank unit, one supporter and a ranged damage dealer.

To answer your question, although it does answer itsself after my recommendations: the Demons of course ^^

[Madstrike]

Ok, cheers for all the info, yeah I was currently playing AP, thats why I was using paladins, no wonder I never saw them in KBTL duh.... yeah I was thinking about getting the sprites/lf/d plus another 2 units U said demons are best, but is it so even with their low init/speed compared to the girls(with the ruby they are blazing fast), I was maybe thinking of using green emerald dragons as tanks for target, they seem like a good option, I rly like his mana sucking ability since Im a mage, he is also a good target for phantom since it can go for very cheap with the mana drain...

Anyway considering I go with ur setup of sprites/lf/d + demons, what would u reckon as last unit, ranged damage dealer unit or a support unit like inquisitors? or maybe even shamans?

[Vulture]

Originally Posted by Vulture

Firstly I'd never go with a 5/5 girls army but with a 3/5 (S, LF, D), added Demons and Skeleton Archers and sometimes swap Dryads with Inquisitors or Black/Green Dragons.

There you have your answer already. Combined with Unholy Commander and Dragon Arrows the Skeleton Archers are among the most brutal raw damage you will find in this game, being capable of easily chopping down a 15+ stack of Black Dragons in one shot.

As for the Initiative problem you have: it's vital to specc Onslaught in the might tree early on. The battle is won or lost in the first (two) round(s). Additional rounds are a matter of form and loss preservation. And since the Demons are your tanks to begin with you may even pause all your units and let them move first (which they will, even before Dragons, provided you have Onslaught). But this strategy also greatly depends on the enemy's setup. If you're facing a wizard type hero with more than two ranged units in his setup you should of course take precautions and pick a more suitable strategy and setup.

P.S: Don't forget that the girls setup isn't complete just with Anga's Ruby. It greatly (!) depends on two additional items damage wise. One being the poison dagger, adding +1 poison damage to their damage as well as Isshara's Whip, adding +1 fire damage to it. With the Sprites and Lake Fairies that have 1-2 and 1-3 (no guarantee on the numbers; just cited from memory) base damage you will end up with 3-4 and 3-5 damage which effectively triples their minimum and doubles their maximum damage output (except with magic/fire/poison resistant/immune opponents). The greatness of those 2 units comes from these items and nothing else.

[Madstrike]

oh, very good points u got there, I thought the girls would do well with just the ruby, I dont have those other items u mentioned. Do you reckon they are weak otherwise? Its a shame cuz I have a place to get demons(in arlania lol) and I got sacrifice so no problems. Would u rather have a different setup in this case?
ps: I just realized those weapons also add the bonus to the archers which is just icing in the cake(or do they not?)

[Vulture]

Yes, it does ice the cake. That makes it even more awesome. You should use the savegame scanner (search for a link to it in the forum) and check where the poison dagger is (or if there is one) in your game. Isshara's Whip is a quest reward and everyone gets it in every game.

To answer your question: I wouldn't recommend using Sprites and Lake Fairies without these two items. Without these items the only quality of those is their speed and initiative, which of course is nice, don't get me wrong, but they're supposed to be your main strikers and they just can't be it without those two weapons.

As for the other question: almost any "glass cannon" striker (ranged or melee alike) will go along perfectly with Demons as a tanking unit. But since I have no idea where you are, what level you're at, what class you play and what talents you chose I can't give you an honest and suitable recommendation about what to replace the girls with. I'd say: try it, play around with certain setups until you find one that suits your level, class, talents and playstyle.