Dear MG

[Meusli]

God this forum is becoming incredibly boring, I feel like I am logging onto groundhog day.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Ataros

Mods, is it possible to merge all these threads into one as soon as they appear every Friday, Saturday, etc?

Best idea ever since the big red letters on reported posts, it will declutter the place and stop these threads from monopolizing all other discussion without deleting posts: people can still complain if they want to, but they can't take over the entire front page.

[Sternjaeger II]

I don't know what's worse,the denial of people that say "I'd rather have them working on it that posting updates",to which I would like to answer "hey,it's not some amateur-cottage-farm folks we're talking about,it's a Software House,with professionals working in it and which,like any other business,has well assignes duties and roles. Finding 20 minutes a week to write a few lines on what's going on is no rocket science,so my conclusion is that there are no updates because there is NO updates,they probably can't fix what they have. Speculation? Maybe,but no news and no patches means no success in fixing what's broken. And hey,don't get me wrong,sxxt happens and I'm well happy to wait (we've done it for YEARS),but at least be respectful to the community and explain what's going on"

..or that after so much talking,Luthier doesn't understand the importance of being present and answer the questions of his customers.

[SG1_Lud]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I don't know what's worse,the denial of people that say "I'd rather have them working on it that posting updates",to which I would like to answer "hey,it's not some amateur-cottage-farm folks we're talking about,it's a Software House,with professionals working in it and which,like any other business,has well assignes duties and roles. Finding 20 minutes a week to write a few lines on what's going on is no rocket science,so my conclusion is that there are no updates because there is NO updates,they probably can't fix what they have. Speculation? Maybe,but no news and no patches means no success in fixing what's broken. And hey,don't get me wrong,sxxt happens and I'm well happy to wait (we've done it for YEARS),but at least be respectful to the community and explain what's going on"

..or that after so much talking,Luthier doesn't understand the importance of being present and answer the questions of his customers.

...or is a strategic decision, maybe even not decided by Luthier.

Not so long ago the company I was working for (public one) had a serious issue and lot of ink were flowing in the newspapers about it. We knew the issu could cost a fortune to us, and we knew that some guys was clearly feeding the fire in their our interests, so we put ourselves in hands of professionals.

We received an attack everyday in the news, but we never answered to them except for a few concise comunications, always avoiding the direct confrontation. In the meantime, we were working behind the scenes. A year later all was solved and nobody now remembers that, nor the company image received any damage.

Said that I,d like to add that Adonys is and has been a helpful forum member, the same for 335_Grathos. While I dont share his opinion here, I,d never calify him as a troll, and tho I dont like the first page of the forum to be filled with petitions, I understand they have the right to do it while it is a valid option and they do it correctly. With this, the only thing I am trying to say is please no more fights among good fellows.

Good day all!

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Best idea ever since the big red letters on reported posts, it will declutter the place and stop these threads from monopolizing all other discussion without deleting posts: people can still complain if they want to, but they can't take over the entire front page.

lol, until people realise they can edit the big red letters out. Great idea.

[smink1701]

It's pretty obvious that...

1. They are working on the game.
2. Friday updates/patches etc are a thing of the past
3. Regular communication from Luthier should not be counted on
4. No degree of complaining is going to have any influence on 1, 2 and 3.

[yellonet]

Wow, some people are really not getting it.

1. You've paid for a license to install and play the game as it is, nothing more.
2. You do not have any right to get updates, information or anything.
3. Demanding and nagging for something that you have no right to becomes annoying for everyone, including the developers.

Luthier have realized that a vocal minority will never be satisfied, in fact they seem to get more rabid for each new piece of info they get instead of the other way around.
Confronted with this it is quite understandable that he has stopped communicating with the community.
So thanks to the whiners for ruining the excellent developer-community relationship for the rest of us!

And let me as, why do you all need to get constant and scheduled information updates?
Do you need it to plan your life or something?
You will likely get information when a patch is ready. That accompanied by the statement from Luthier that they are working, should be enough for a mature individual to just let go and wait.

It's like some of you keep a child-before-christmas feeling of anticipation just under the surface and that it torments you as you have to hold it in... just let go of that and try to not think about it

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Wow, some people are really not getting it.

1. You've paid for a license to install and play the game as it is, nothing more.
2. You do not have any right to get updates, information or anything.
3. Demanding and nagging for something that you have no right to becomes annoying for everyone, including the developers.

Luthier have realized that a vocal minority will never be satisfied, in fact they seem to get more rabid for each new piece of info they get instead of the other way around.
Confronted with this it is quite understandable that he has stopped communicating with the community.
So thanks to the whiners for ruining the excellent developer-community relationship for the rest of us!

Excuse me but I can't help laughing at your delusional attitude!!
When you buy a piece of software,who's selling you the product needs to guarantee for the functionality of it. Say that you bought Photoshop or Dreamweaver, u install it and it doesn't work as it's supposed to,you have all the rights,as a customer,to ask for support and feedback from the seller/producer of the upsaid piece of software,otherwise it's a fraud,because you've been sold for functional and complete something that actually isn't. The truth is that they know this well and they're probably keeping quiet for this reason.
It's not the whiners that made Luthier disappear, it's his deliberate choice,and it's more and more evident that it's one dictated by the fact that they can't quite manage to fix bugs as they hoped. They have all my solidariety and support,but they should give their customers,people that invested in their talent,a roadmap,a situation update that makes sense. We don't need silly hints like "guess what we're working on next",we're not teenagers,we need them to be honest and upfront,or they will lose all of their credibility.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

lol, until people realise they can edit the big red letters out. Great idea.

There are workarounds for anything really, the difference is where you choose to focus. I spend more time finding workarounds that enable me to fly the sim and after a while i've managed to not only have fun myself but also help others do the same. On the other hand, people are free to look for workarounds that enable them to clutter the forums instead of flying the sim.

Tree, you know i'm all for free speech and i've defended your right to have your say in the past, but repeating one-liners is doing nothing for us. We don't get any development updates any faster, same for patches.

What's more, the vocal group's skewed idea of freedom of speech is encroaching on that of the rest. When we can't have a single thread, however far the original topic might be from their preferred issues to talk about, without it descending into the usual sad situation, then it's time to reassess the whole matter and understand that they are detracting from the freedom of speech of others who want to talk about other equally valid issues.

In plain terms, the repetitive one-sided banter ("whiner" and "fanboy" alike) prevents anyone else from having a discussion about anything else. How is this freedom of speech when a vocal minority is effectively deciding what is ok to talk about and what is not, by pulling every thread in the direction they want? It's not, it's just some community members enforcing their beliefs on everyone else by disrupting any discussion that doesn't agree with or doesn't have a direct consequence of furthering their own agenda. It's more like an effort to monopolize the developer's attention and get their preferred set of toys before everyone else than freedom of speech really.

I don't want to have the same things crop up in every single unrelated thread and disrupting discussions that are equally, if not more, important to many people than the lack of AA or the kind of green used in the fields or the tracers. What can i do about it? Well, there are two choices here really: i can either do the same to them and derail their threads for a change to see if they can take a taste of their own medicine, or i can propose different moderating techniques and let the powers that be take it from there.

It just makes people bored having the same issues pop up in a dozen different threads per week and diminishes the signal to noise ratio. If some people had spent as much time reading a few helpful posts as they have repeating the same things for the past couple of months they wouldn't be asking how to solve issues that have been answered since April.

It's well within your rights to present an opinion and well within the rights of others to disagree, challenge and ignore it.

Let's face it, the strategy failed, it might have been annoying to the developers and the most hardcore supporters at first but it still didn't produce any tangible results. If anything, it has caused even the more level headed or even previously uninvolved people in the community to either get dragged down into slagging matches or become bored with it and openly start combating it, like i'm doing now.

Right now it's just an annoyance and the only reason it can't be easily ignored is the sheer amount of volume it takes up in the forums. And just to be clear, i don't mean the message (critical or positive) but the attitude with which it is conveyed.

Still, all it takes to change that is a bit of forum moderation. The mods don't need to delete the offending posts and stifle anyone's freedom of speech. All they have to do is prune and move/merge every such post or thread into a sticky complaint, speculation and arguments megathread that the rest of us can ignore at their own leisure while talking about more interesting things, while the so called "whiners" and "fanboys" are confined to their own private arena.

You see, it's not the opinion i take offence to. It's the aggressive proselytizing that i disagree with. In that sense the so called group of "whiners" is no different than the so called group of "fanboys": different agendas, same tactics, equal amounts of the false sense of speaking for the entire community, plus annoyance and lack of usefulness for everyone else.

Let them argue all they want to, as long as they don't aggressively try to drag everyone else in their feud. If they do, then it's time for the "peacekeepers" or "bouncers" to cordon off area so they can't negatively influence the rest of the community.

Getting the feeling that i'm having my eyes glued open a la A Clockwork Orange while being forced to watch grown men mud-wrestling in thongs every time i browse the forums is hardly synonymous to freedom of speech, it's merely being subjected to endless bouts of boredom against my wishes. And before someone says that it's well within my rights to ignore it, let me just say that i shouldn't even have to get that far if i'm within the forum's original focus: if i'm watching a sports game in a bar and two people come in, throw down an inflatable pool filled with mud, strip to their underwear and start rolling in it, it's not me who should be forced to leave the premises in order to avoid the spectacle but them.

[albx]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Excuse me but I can't help laughing at your delusional attitude!!
When you buy a piece of software,who's selling you the product needs to guarantee for the functionality of it. Say that you bought Photoshop or Dreamweaver, u install it and it doesn't work as it's supposed to,you have all the rights,as a customer,to ask for support and feedback from the seller/producer of the upsaid piece of software,otherwise it's a fraud,because you've been sold for functional and complete something that actually isn't. The truth is that they know this well and they're probably keeping quiet for this reason.
It's not the whiners that made Luthier disappear, it's his deliberate choice,and it's more and more evident that it's one dictated by the fact that they can't quite manage to fix bugs as they hoped. They have all my solidariety and support,but they should give their customers,people that invested in their talent,a roadmap,a situation update that makes sense. We don't need silly hints like "guess what we're working on next",we're not teenagers,we need them to be honest and upfront,or they will lose all of their credibility.

All those troubles on this forum are, in my opinion, started after luthier or who said him to do, stopped to interact with us. I was very enthusiast when luthier posted the roadmap about the sound to be fixed, about their progress and so on. I remember, before the release, when we were here the friday all waiting for Oleg to post his screenshots. I think that many people here don't ask a patch, but just a more interaction with the customers. As stated by luthier, this is not possible because they don't have the resource to do it. To be honest, if it was me I could find 10 minutes in my day to just write 2 lines. Probably what he would write could make more whiners than now, or probably less... but I saw for sure that everytime luthier wrote something everybody was happy to read it. this is my thought... call me whiner or troll or what do you want... but this is how i see it right now