What a tracer should look like (before spazzing just look).

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by winny

You've gone from telling me that what I said does not happen, to now say it's already in the game.. Despite the fact that according to you it doesn't happen.

That's because you've gone from saying tracers should look like the same effect as someone waving a candle or flashlight to back peddling and saying the viewing angle is incorrect.

And for someone that says they are not stupid, then why don't you heed to the advice of someone who knows exactly what tracer ammunition looks like by being part of their job? You're trying to say that my daily experience with something is wrong because of what you read in a physics book.

All I can say is what we have in game, with regards to bending light and what your eye ball will see it as, is spot on. And unlike you, I know this from 1st hand experience virtually on a daily basis. I'm sick and tired of hearing the same BS from people like you that don't have the 1st clue about the subject in the 1st place. If you actually knew anything about physics then you'd also realize that at the speed of the bullet, your body would have to be jolted in such a way that's almost, if not entirely, life threatening to have any effect whatsoever with regards to how the round will look.

That's why it's laughable when your whole argument that you were talking about at SimHq with regards to a waving flashlight or candle is ridiculous. Once you realize that a tracer round from start to finish (in your viewing angle) disappears in a split second (depending on your offset / ammunition) you'll also realize that for the light to do anything in that short amount of time (through your naked eye) that your body has to be jolted in a HUGE way to even think about having any sort of effect of straightness of a tracer round to your naked eye.

You are not getting it, and by you arguing with someone that works with the subject matter on a daily basis, it's quite clear that you never will.

[yellonet]

Has anyone even bothered to watch the video I linked to?
So that we know that we are talking about the same effect.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Has anyone even bothered to watch the video I linked to?
So that we know that we are talking about the same effect.

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

That's why the rounds start arcing to the eye under extreme forces. And this is evident in game.

actually, the stream will arc physically if the barrel tip is being moved about at a great manner, such as in deflection shooting, or "hosing" down a target with a GAU... but only in relation to the round fired immediately after (the same as "hosing" off the front path and seeing what the water stream does as the nozzle is moved about) But, in any case, the tracers still are straight and the round still flies straight (taking into account, as mentioned earlier, gravity, projectile launch power, and atmospheric conditions)

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

[yellonet]

The thing is that under the right circumstances the light streak will bend. And as with all tracer streaks it's not really happening but is only an illusion that occurs in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

No one is talking about bullet trajectory - the trajectory could be straight as a laser, the discussed effect would still occur.

And unless you have experience flying an aircraft and firing loads of tracers in sharp turns any amount of firing tracers from fixed positions will not get you to observe the phenomenon, so that experience is for this discussion completely inconsequential.

I for one would really like to see the effect in the game as it would probably look really good from external views.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

I didn't think it needed explanation as it is quite obvious, except for you, that I did not say that the the eye has no shutter, camera functions were just used as an analogy.
If I had meant that the eye had a shutter I would have said "the eye has a shutter".
But talk all you want the eye still has the limitations as I've said before.

Originally Posted by yellonet

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...


And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by yellonet

So, what's your point here? Are you saying that there's a difference between different light sources when it comes the the discussed effect?

the velocity difference and length of burn time between a rounds tracer and a sparkler.



People need to keep in mind that a movie camera takes a "snapshot" every 1/25 of a second or so (depending on camera), so, if that camera is "shaking" (even minimally) it takes the "snapshot" at different aspects of the subject, hence the "zig-zagging" of guncam footage... both WWII and the more modern helicopter mounted GAU in the popular (in this thread) YouTube.

[Sammi79]

The tracers in game do not look realistic, Syn_Bliss. For a start there are far too many, there is no (faint) smoke trail, and the recoil does not effect the trajectory as it should. the result is that each tracer round follows almost an identical path to the previos one and among other obvious things from gun camera footage (I already agreed that the wobble is down to camera shake) there is a much greater spread when these guns are fired.

Now you may berate me and say I have no real life experience on this matter, however, your real life experience comes from firing modern weapons with modern ammunition, on modern weapon mountings, please correct me if I'm wrong on this (I am assuming) - Therefore your view on how the tracers should look is flawed also. There are other things that can affect the rounds - tumbling and so forth - that can cause the odd round to fly off in an unexpected trajectory, even spiralling through the air (yes I know very rarely but..) Remember that the guns you fire most likely have a much higher muzzle velocity & rate of fire than these antiquated WWII weapons, causing straighter trajectories, longer looking tracers, etc. Chemicals and methods used for tracer have surely been changed and refined in the time since 1945. - Less smoke, brighter, less deviation compared to normal rounds etc...

You have already stated that rounds fired from your point of view look like a dot, no? so when in game they look like a streak something is wrong. Watch Yellnets linked video to see the spread effect I am on about, aswell as the fewer number of actual tracer rounds, and the smoke trails. The camera is not creating these effects now is it.