Help For Luthier

[Shado]

Ok just jumping into the party here, taken from the original motor.merlin.prs dumped out with the kegetys mod.


As you can see this was created at an earlier date before Jafa kindly put his mod out, pehaps he;'s helping them already.

[xnomad]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

What track records that ?

A secure anti cheat sound generation engine that stopped online hackers using sounds as radar !!!

Are you kidding? There is inexhaustible evidence of bad planning/management in the development of this game, that really isn't even debatable.

Now look at all my previous posts, I'm not a hater and I enjoy this game, but to sugar coat it and say that their track record so far is good, is taking it a bit too far. Yes I feel I've got my money's worth and I'm grateful for all the hard work that the devs are putting in but I can still state my opinion can't I?

I don't know why you are bringing up the 'anti cheat sound engine' I wasn't talking about that.

As I said I can live with the sound, but I think they've got a chance to start from scratch so they might as well take this opportunity and get it right, but I in my opinion I don't think they will.

When the new sound engine gets released I'll happily admit I'm wrong about this if they do improve the sounds, otherwise I'll dig this thread up again and say "I told you so". I hope I'm wrong.....

[Les]

I actually dislike hearing the same 'air-show fly-by' sound that plays regardless of where the plane is located in space and what it's engine is doing at the time, more than I do the gutless synthesized lawn-mower engine kind of sound effect.

Which is to say, I personally prefer 'Dynamic' sounds rather than 'Canned' sounds. That is, sounds that change dynamically depending on what's happening in the game, rather than pre-recorded sounds that just stop and start depending on what's happening in-game.

It's my understanding that Maddox games also prefer to use Dynamic rather than Canned sounds.

The problem as I see it is that their synthetic dynamic sounds simply lack the range and detail of the more 'organic' canned sounds that you can get with good quality field-recordings.

I honestly think if their synthetic sounds were just 'beefier' and didn't loop with such obvious digital precision there'd be a lot fewer compaints about the sound in general. And it puzzles me why they haven't ever 'beefed-up' and randomized their sounds more.

The kinds of plane engines we have in-game should raise the hairs on the back of your neck and strike fear into the hearts of your enemies when they're cranked up. If they were realistically depicted, people would start up the engines in their planes and just sit there revving the motor up and down like engine enthusiasts do in real life.

The current sounds are so far from that, and always have been, that it isn't funny. But I don't see ripping the sounds from other sources as a solution, even if you can find a way to 'get away with it'.

In my opinion the developers need to stick with using a dynamic, synthetic, sound system like they have in the past. But they need to introduce more variables into their sounds, pushing the complexity of it right up to the technological limit, and they simply need to find a way to make their engine's sound-samples sound more like they do in real life.

I suspect though, that to re-create those bone-rattling, hair-raising sounds using synthesized sounds would require a level of sonic artistry and mastery that most 'audio-guys' wouldn't have. Kind of like handing someone a Rembrandt and asking them to recreate it from scratch in some kind of 'Paint' program. Some people could do a pretty good job of that, but does Maddox games have access to audio artists of that calibre?

The way I see it at the moment is, the sounds of the engines lack the same detail and level of accuracy/authenticity that, for example, the graphical depictions of the planes have.

And beyond that, and just as important I'd say, the game has large amounts of it's potential sounds absent altogether. There's a long way to go in that regard too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Just stating the obvious.

If they're re-doing their sound engine altogether, I hope they're doing it in such a way that it can call up more samples in a more complex arrangement than before, and that the samples themselves are more complex and tune-able than before, so that they can be made distinguishable from each other while still retaining that base-level grunt or power that these engines should have.

[furbs]

Originally Posted by BigPickle

The copyright logic i have heard banded around is nonsense. Listen to the 303's in the stock game, tell me honestly they didnt come from either the battle of britian movie or from Wings of victory, i checked and they are identical but because our 303 is slightly reworked its been used here.

For a company trying to re-coop fundings recording their sounds from new is not an option. They will of course either use and expand on the same sounds, or buy sounds already made.

Personaly I dont want them to use anyones mod I want them to sort out their sound and clearly they will do this, entertaining the idea that they will come to the community to ask for help is a ridiculous notition. They are a professional development team and dont need our help.

Why?...they already said they need our help with missions and campagins.

[Ibis]

Originally Posted by Les

I actually dislike hearing the same 'air-show fly-by' sound that plays regardless of where the plane is located in space and what it's engine is doing at the time, more than I do the gutless synthesized lawn-mower engine kind of sound effect.

Which is to say, I personally prefer 'Dynamic' sounds rather than 'Canned' sounds. That is, sounds that change dynamically depending on what's happening in the game, rather than pre-recorded sounds that just stop and start depending on what's happening in-game.

It's my understanding that Maddox games also prefer to use Dynamic rather than Canned sounds.

The problem as I see it is that their synthetic dynamic sounds simply lack the range and detail of the more 'organic' canned sounds that you can get with good quality field-recordings.

I honestly think if their synthetic sounds were just 'beefier' and didn't loop with such obvious digital precision there'd be a lot fewer compaints about the sound in general. And it puzzles me why they haven't ever 'beefed-up' and randomized their sounds more.

The kinds of plane engines we have in-game should raise the hairs on the back of your neck and strike fear into the hearts of your enemies when they're cranked up. If they were realistically depicted, people would start up the engines in their planes and just sit there revving the motor up and down like engine enthusiasts do in real life.

The current sounds are so far from that, and always have been, that it isn't funny. But I don't see ripping the sounds from other sources as a solution, even if you can find a way to 'get away with it'.

In my opinion the developers need to stick with using a dynamic, synthetic, sound system like they have in the past. But they need to introduce more variables into their sounds, pushing the complexity of it right up to the technological limit, and they simply need to find a way to make their engine's sound-samples sound more like they do in real life.

I suspect though, that to re-create those bone-rattling, hair-raising sounds using synthesized sounds would require a level of sonic artistry and mastery that most 'audio-guys' wouldn't have. Kind of like handing someone a Rembrandt and asking them to recreate it from scratch in some kind of 'Paint' program. Some people could do a pretty good job of that, but does Maddox games have access to audio artists of that calibre?

The way I see it at the moment is, the sounds of the engines lack the same detail and level of accuracy/authenticity that, for example, the graphical depictions of the planes have.

And beyond that, and just as important I'd say, the game has large amounts of it's potential sounds absent altogether. There's a long way to go in that regard too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Just stating the obvious.

If they're re-doing their sound engine altogether, I hope they're doing it in such a way that it can call up more samples in a more complex arrangement than before, and that the samples themselves are more complex and tune-able than before, so that they can be made distinguishable from each other while still retaining that base-level grunt or power that these engines should have.

================================================== ======

Give this man a big fat cigar.
That is the best critique of the sound problem I've heard, or rather read, in hundreds of posts on the matter.
thanks Les,
Ibis.


.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Les

I actually dislike hearing the same 'air-show fly-by' sound that plays regardless of where the plane is located in space and what it's engine is doing at the time, more than I do the gutless synthesized lawn-mower engine kind of sound effect.

Which is to say, I personally prefer 'Dynamic' sounds rather than 'Canned' sounds. That is, sounds that change dynamically depending on what's happening in the game, rather than pre-recorded sounds that just stop and start depending on what's happening in-game.

It's my understanding that Maddox games also prefer to use Dynamic rather than Canned sounds.

The problem as I see it is that their synthetic dynamic sounds simply lack the range and detail of the more 'organic' canned sounds that you can get with good quality field-recordings.

I honestly think if their synthetic sounds were just 'beefier' and didn't loop with such obvious digital precision there'd be a lot fewer compaints about the sound in general. And it puzzles me why they haven't ever 'beefed-up' and randomized their sounds more.

The kinds of plane engines we have in-game should raise the hairs on the back of your neck and strike fear into the hearts of your enemies when they're cranked up. If they were realistically depicted, people would start up the engines in their planes and just sit there revving the motor up and down like engine enthusiasts do in real life.

The current sounds are so far from that, and always have been, that it isn't funny. But I don't see ripping the sounds from other sources as a solution, even if you can find a way to 'get away with it'.

In my opinion the developers need to stick with using a dynamic, synthetic, sound system like they have in the past. But they need to introduce more variables into their sounds, pushing the complexity of it right up to the technological limit, and they simply need to find a way to make their engine's sound-samples sound more like they do in real life.

I suspect though, that to re-create those bone-rattling, hair-raising sounds using synthesized sounds would require a level of sonic artistry and mastery that most 'audio-guys' wouldn't have. Kind of like handing someone a Rembrandt and asking them to recreate it from scratch in some kind of 'Paint' program. Some people could do a pretty good job of that, but does Maddox games have access to audio artists of that calibre?

The way I see it at the moment is, the sounds of the engines lack the same detail and level of accuracy/authenticity that, for example, the graphical depictions of the planes have.

And beyond that, and just as important I'd say, the game has large amounts of it's potential sounds absent altogether. There's a long way to go in that regard too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Just stating the obvious.

If they're re-doing their sound engine altogether, I hope they're doing it in such a way that it can call up more samples in a more complex arrangement than before, and that the samples themselves are more complex and tune-able than before, so that they can be made distinguishable from each other while still retaining that base-level grunt or power that these engines should have.

+1 on all counts, especially the dynamic nature of sound.

I used mods in IL2:1946 because it was a case of weaker sounding looping samples vs throatier sounding looping samples.

In CoD however i don't use mods yet, because the stock in-cockpit sounds are dynamic enough to let me understand what's going on with the engine. This helps me loads in flying full CEM, so i can't go to looped samples just yet.

[Tiger27]

Originally Posted by BigPickle

Agree'd Zorin, but it think thats a leadership issue when no clear direction is displayed.
They wont ask for help with sound and rightly so because they get paid for their work and i fear they could come off looking lame asking unpaid guys to do their work for them.
They already use the community for beta testing problem is no-one looks at the results properly and then decides if the extra ship should be put in or should they fix the spastic AI that fly with in-human characteristics.

Why is it so hard to understand that the person who did the ship, would have nothing to do with the person fixing AI, if they have an employee that is there to model objects then it would make no sense not to get him making things, irrespective of whether other bugs exist as he isn't the person trained to fix those bugs, for me I hope we get new objects with every patch, including more ships.

[timholt]

Originally posted by Bgpickle Quote "They are a professional development team and dont need our help." End quote

Wrong on both counts methinks.

[JG52Krupi]

Yes because cod looks terrible... Lol the only thing that they can be blamed for is biting off too much and realising the game in a bad state. Yes two bad things but you can't say that the team has no talent in a few months we will all be in awe of the engine.

I think some are possibly thinking about what you want from this sim instead of what 1C might do to repair this game.

The reason why people make mods is to offer a different choice over the stock, and the stock sound code is broken, both Jafa and I mithered about wether to let our beta's out because of this issue and what you have from us is probably half of what we could do given time, but that right there is the point. If you think what we have done is good your wrong, it just shows how bad the state of the code is right now for sound. 1C have recognized this and a process of fixing is in progress. Leave them to it because it will be a difficult job to fix it.

Tiger, The guy making the ship isnt just doing it of his own accord mate, he is told to, and leadership thinks we need a ship instead of having re-worked AI, clearly having a functioning game ie AI needs to work correctly to have exciting gameplay.

On the sound issue let me re-illiterate, the code is damaged that is the problem right now.
They have the re-write the sound engine because it was broken, sticking a sound mod over the top wont fix anything at all because the code that runs that mod is broken.

So this is why they need to spend the time to do this.
I'll say this also, if they do start using peoples mods instead of fixing issues, I dont know how long i'll play the game because we'll still have broken code within the game.

I'm sure they wont do this as they want to create a great game that will last, a game that is theirs and not a patchwork of different work from the different people. Just so we are clear. That is the reason why the game is the way it is because of different peoples code all mixed in, Luthier said they are trying to find and scrub out that code left by people gone from the team, using users mods surely would defeat that object.

So just lump it and leave em alone to fix it their way, stop encouraging development quick fixes and think about longivity.
if you dont like the sound use a mod and play single player for a bit, but if we start telling them to use usermade mods to fill in the holes in their game we will end up with a big mess, if it dont get fixed properly then the user made sound mods out now will be the best you'll get. Personally I'd like to make a proper one on a better written engine.