Equilibrium Mod

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Ok i compared bad with hign Int spells for Mage, and Warrior, i meant to say mid/late game when you get class specific skills it it get even. More rage form Bloodthirst isn`t strong as double casting with mage.
I dont think pure fighting class need special boost, i just say it makes things even ground. In original setings was +9/+12/+18 Att Def Int, here is +18 all = it`s balanced.

But then, mages start out with lower leadership and gain ATT and DEF slower, and at low levels, the difference in spellcasting abilities isn't really significant enough to compensate for that. In that regard, the classes are already balanced: Warriors have an easier start, which is why it's only fair that their late-game abilities aren't as powerful as the mages'.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

This mode wont make it much easier, only shorten your battles.

...assuming that you use the mod precisely the way you described, and I kind of doubt that was the author's intention; if it was, there would have been no need to add extra runes, extra crystals or extra potions.

Like I said, it may be possible to use the mod in a way that doesn't decrease difficulty too much, but since that requires you to consciously restrain yourself from using many of the things it offers, I can't agree with the notion that it wasn't designed to make the game easier.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Jah

But then, mages start out with lower leadership and gain ATT and DEF slower, and at low levels, the difference in spellcasting abilities isn't really significant enough to compensate for that. In that regard, the classes are already balanced: Warriors have an easier start, which is why it's only fair that their late-game abilities aren't as powerful as the mages'.

Early game/low lvls this mod doesn`t change anything, bonuses on Att/Deff are only available around mid game +Att for Warrior for class skill. Or from absolute balance, but that is for all classes. I dont think it`s so much stronger then before, compared to Mage higher Int and double casting.
As for spell casting early game, warrior have none his magic rune income is pathetic. Therefore some medal`s are harder to get for him comparing to Pally/Mage (this i mean without changes in mode).
Lets try this out, i think you`ll agree most important medal is Grand strategy asap 3 lvl is playing normally around changing from Rusty to Verona, that is 50 battles no loss, in those 50 battles you have chance to get bonus runes 2-4 might, 3-6 mind, 8-10 magic. For all that trouble you get 1k leadership which was plan in beginning, and maybe 1 more skill lvl depending how much runes you get and what skills you plan to lvlup.
So early-game you`ll get probably 1 skill lvl for bonus runes , mid-game most ppl get heavy battle control with phantom, summons from units, and take skills they need so no much unused runes to boots Rune mages ( ok you used runes from bonus after battles, that can be easing things a bit), but again late-game you`ll have your planed army on which you decided some items to help out, and for changes in skills biggest is for warrior class and that is only +6Att for which i cant agree is so stronger then in original game.

On other topic still no suggestions for helping me with changing unit abilities

[Zechnophobe]

Heroism: +2,+4,+6 Attack (was +1, +3, +6)
Resistance: +2, +4, +6 Defense (was +1, +3, +5)
Anger: 20%/+2, 40%/+4, 60%/+8 Rage Increase/Maximum Rage (was 20%,40%,60% rage flow increase)
The Power of Darkness: +3, +5/1, +7/2 Attack AND Defense/Initiative of all Undead (was +3, +5/1, +7/2 Attack/Initiative)
Bloodlust: +6/+2, +12/+4, +18/+6 Maximum Rage/Attack (was +5,+10,+15 maximum rage)

Counter-Attack: now in the Might Tree. Level 2 and 3 now give no retaliation ability to all allies for the 1st/2nd round.

MIND
Prayer: +3%/+1, +5%/+2, +7%/+3 Critical Chance/Defense (was +3%,+5%,+7% Critical Chance)
Absolute Balance: +4/+1, +8/+2, +12/+3 Mana and Rage/Attack and Defense (was +4,+8,+12 Mana and Rage)
Dragon Voice: +1/+6, +1/+12, +2/+18 Morale to animals and dragons/Increases Maximum Rage (was +1,+1,+2 Morale)
Trophy now costs only 5,5,5 mind runes, not 5+1,5+1,5+1 mind+magic runes

Holy Armor: now in the Mind Tree. Increases the magic, fire, poison and astral resistance with 30%, 30%, 50% for the first 1,2,2 rounds.

MAGIC
Linguistics: +2, +4, +6 Intellect (was +1, +3, +6 Intellect)
Order Magic: +6, +9, +12 Maximum Scrolls (was with no scolls bonus)
Distortion Magic: +2, +4, +6 Maximum Mana and Scrolls (was with no mana/scrolls bonus)
Chaos Magic: +6, +9, +12 Maximum Mana (was witn no mana bonus)
Thesis: +2/+8, +4/+16, +6/+24 Intellect/Maximum Mana (was +2/+7, +4/+14, +6/+21 Intellect/Maximum Mana)

So, Fatt_Shade, I'm probably just misunderstanding. But you keep saying there isn't 'just more'. I don't have the Mod installed so you have more information than I do.

All the changes are listed above, each one shows skills being enhanced, and none show them getting weaker. Can you please explain what penalties exist that offset these bonus'?

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

So, Fatt_Shade, I'm probably just misunderstanding. But you keep saying there isn't 'just more'. I don't have the Mod installed so you have more information than I do.

All the changes are listed above, each one shows skills being enhanced, and none show them getting weaker. Can you please explain what penalties exist that offset these bonus'?

Yes skills are enhanced, but to degree +1Att/Def/Int early game of 1%2 lvl of Heroism, Resistance, Linguistic and cost same as before. It grows linearly=balanced. You get some more rage/mana/scrolls (read below for that balance). And for getting weaker skills there is skill distribution in respective tree`s - to get Bloodthirst you need 7 other skills, for Resurrection you need 6, and for High magic only 4.
As for after battles bonus rewards all except runes were obsolete for me, finished game with 30 mana wells, 300 crystals, and with 50 mana/rage potions. i used only runes and them after 40th lvl, cause didnt know what to take any more. Didn`t used rune mages, so bonus for their talents wasn`t in question ( i had Princess, Darkness, Undead and Insanity sets so realy didn`t know which combo to pick

Originally Posted by Jah

That's my whole point. The game is currently pretty well balanced in that warriors are stronger in the early game, while mages become more powerful in the late game. If you're going to give warriors some extra bonuses in the mid-/late game, then in order to maintain balance, you need to either give them penalties in the early game, or give mages a similar boost for low levels. Otherwise you're just making warriors stronger in relation to mages, which is not what I would call "balancing".

I played Mage impos with this mode so i`ll tell you form that example : for bonus rage/mana from Anger/Magic skills they are evenly distributed you get more mana scrolls for Mage, then rage for Warrior. So it`s really easier for Mage early then before (for achieving medals) , and Warrior get some bonus later in game with +6Att from Bloodthirst. It`s not as strenghtning Warrior, as is helping Mage early, both classes get some bonus.
Extra runes helps out all classes, no difference there.

As for making higher score then other players without this mode it`s not possible. You cant finish game in less then 7 days, with all quests, and 60+ lvl cause it doesn`t affects exp gain, or traveling time. So you cant get more points in the end=no cheating. This mode only give you easier way to no loss if you really want that 0 casualties on high score screen. I`m defending this mode because finished game with both Warrior and Mage impossible/no loss in original game, with preety much same early mid game (royal thorns trackers for sumoning frenzy, inquisitor archmage for suporting until Rusty and hope for some dragons, from Verona 90% players go paladins/rune mage phantom tactics, or go with boring 2 repair droid 1 guard-those arent units, they are kitchen appliances . . . pretty much generic). Now i tried this to have some fun and different unit tactics : girl power with Fauns and Ents, full Orc army for adrenalin frenzy, dwarf army with alchemist set-got it with Warrior and it`s hilarious, hordes or droids rolling across battlefield . . . for demons there are no bonuses except +1morale, but they are still bitches to resurrect.
To sum it up who dont like changes - dont use this mode, if you wnat to try different things with some units you havent used before, go for it.

On different note, i found where to change unit talent for rune mages and in sessions/orcs/orcs.rar runemage.lng file, and it scared me. Does that needs to be done for any unit that have active talent ? Holy s..t !!!
If yes, i`m dropping my idea for bonus from runes, to other units.

Edit : I found 2 more errors,.
1) In neatness skill same as Anger remove 100 , 200, 300 from skill.txt this way Mechanic get 100% bonus from lvling that skill. Instead curent numbers leave only 10, 20, 30 so he`ll receive 10/20/30% in mechanics sumoning as in original.
2) Other is problem with onslaught and getting adrenaline distributed to Orc troops, it`s not working. I have only 1 orc unit , and 3 lvl onslaught so it should get 30 adrenaline, but i`m not getting any on start of battle. How to fix this ?

I think i found problem with Onslaught. If some1 can try to find sesion\orcs\orcs.kfc\skills.lua
in that file there is string :

function skill_rush(name,level)
local bonus = skill_power(name,2,level-1)
if level >1 then bonus=bonus-skill_power(name,2,level-2) end
local cur_rage=Logic.hero_lu_item("rage","limit")
Logic.hero_lu_item("rage","limit",cur_rage+bonus)
return true
end

which define bonus initiative, and rage from that skill, but i`m missing part local_bonus2 . . . for defining adrenaline distribution to orc troops in army. Pls copy other part of string and send it to me by PM. I`m not rly good with moding, but i think that should fix it. In eng_skills.lng i found description for functioning of this skill, but in skills.lua that part is missing.
Thx in advance ppl

[Zechnophobe]

Well, I think theres is some miscommunication here, I'll try to clear this up in a nice way.

There are two ways you can talk about balance. One is the human against the AI here. That is, is the challenge of the game perserved with a given change? The other is 'is the challenge of the game equal between game choices'.

I believe that you think this is 'more balanced' because it is making some classes stronger to bring them in line. That is, warrior gets stronger, Mage gets only a little stronger.

But does that address the concern of IS the fundamental challenge of the game preserved? Because it is not. You spend the same runes as you did pre-mod, but you get more rage, attack, defense, whatever. The game is then easier because you have more of these things at your disposal.

Considering that I don't find the game in need of less challenge, and in fact find ways to make it HARDER not EASIER, this mod seems very bad.

Also, your comment:

"It grows linearly=balanced."

Is false. Linear does not mean balanced. Nor does non-linear mean unbalanced. Consider, for example, that the cost of each rank isn't the same. THe first +1 attack you get is 4 might, 1 mind. The next two is 8 Might 2 mind. The last three are 12might, 3 mind. These are actually the same runes per attack cost, but broken up into different chunks.

By making the first point of attack cheaper, it lets you unlock the tier two skills earlier, while maintaining the same relative cost for a point of attack.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

There are two ways you can talk about balance. One is the human against the AI here. That is, is the challenge of the game perserved with a given change? The other is 'is the challenge of the game equal between game choices'.

If you check on first page of this tread you`ll see mod creator said he made this mode for fun, not to preserve the way things are in original setup.
He didn`t thrived to preserve anything, he wanted to have fun in game without need to constantly cast phantom to revive units you cant buy while playing certain islands. Yes you get bonus on Att/Def, so you have stronger units thus less need to resurrect them-no more phantom casting rounds in battles-no more wasting time that way.

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

"It grows linearly=balanced."
Is false. Linear does not mean balanced. Nor does non-linear mean unbalanced. Consider, for example, that the cost of each rank isn't the same. THe first +1 attack you get is 4 might, 1 mind. The next two is 8 Might 2 mind. The last three are 12might, 3 mind. These are actually the same runes per attack cost, but broken up into different chunks.

Yea i made mistake here, didnt mean linearly, but evenly. Same bonus for every lvl of skill. I said balanced cause this way you get same bonus for every lvl, like with rage/mana gain from Anger/Wisdom or magic dmg from Destroyer/Summoner. Before no 1 lvl +1Att/Def/Int pretty weak, 2 so-so, and 3 lvl is great, now every lvl is usefull.
I`m thinking doing same for Learning/Healer skills, now in those for first lvl you get same bonus as for 2&3 lvl`s together, it`s seems uneven.

The Rider started working on similar mode, with some changes here and interesting ideas http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17260 but just dessapeared around middle of november, i wonder is he alright.

Any hints for fixing my problem with Onslaught , and no adrenaline on start of battle for my Orcs ? I remember it worked in KB-CW 1.2, but since i patched to 1.31 seem that skill doesnt work anymore. Havent noticed it with Mage cause never used Orcs, but it`s boring playing them without it

[gimpz]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

As for making higher score then other players without this mode it`s not possible. You cant finish game in less then 7 days, with all quests, and 60+ lvl cause it doesn`t affects exp gain, or traveling time. So you cant get more points in the end=no cheating

Who cares about points nowadays? You play a game because it's fun, not to compare to other players who might have completely different ambitions than you. If you want to compete, this is not the game. The days when points mattered were on the 80s with games like Bubble Bubble and Tetris.

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Early game/low lvls this mod doesn`t change anything

That's my whole point. The game is currently pretty well balanced in that warriors are stronger in the early game, while mages become more powerful in the late game. If you're going to give warriors some extra bonuses in the mid-/late game, then in order to maintain balance, you need to either give them penalties in the early game, or give mages a similar boost for low levels. Otherwise you're just making warriors stronger in relation to mages, which is not what I would call "balancing".