Turret Gunner Controls

[Robotic Pope]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

@ Blackdog_kt
"In that sense, having the ability to give certain commands to the gunners would take away the need for us to fly the aircraft with one hand on the stick and shoot the defensive guns with the other on the mouse."

Flying backwards while shooting the guns, it's one of the best parts of the game imo. Wouldn't want to give it up to AI. Only thing I need AI for is tracking bandits.

You could still have the option to do both at once if you wanted. What Blackdog is saying is with better AI and AI commands you wouldn't absolutly NEED to.

Blackdog, A crew radio menu like that would be awesome, cool idea. It would bring a lot more tactics to the fight.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Wutz

Oh there are eight candidates that are in that club.
But back to the topic, when thinking of the twin 20mm flak guns used during my military service those could swing around really fast, that is why I would like to see hard evidence that turrets where slow or laggy, and not just some fighter jocks wet dream to easy successes.

Mate, there's no need to be aggressive, it just detracts from the point you are trying to make.

Not all of us are looking for easy kills against bombers, but if a particular turret was slow in real life then the simulation should reflect that and that goes for guns in swivel mounts too, depending on their weight and other factors.

Before you draw any conclusions
a) yes, i used to fly bombers online all the time whenever a mission came up with fighters that i didn't know how to fly well (i flew Fw190s almost exclusively, so in maps without 190s i was always taking a bomber) and
b) back when i was spending a lot of time with IL2 i would routinely setup a high altitude QMB mission (7500 or 10000m) with me in an early model Fw190A against four B-17s at ace AI settings...no big guns or heavy armor, not even a full Mg151 loadout, just 2xMg151,2xMgFF and the machine guns and i could kill them all just fine.

Some of the people reading this will obviously think "what does this guy's bragging have to do with the topic at hand?" and guess what, they will be right because what we like to fly and how well we do it in the simulator is not a criterion of how realistic certain aspects of the simulator are. Unfortunately, it does tend to be a criterion of what kind of changes we tend to ask for in the sim

Well, i can defeat AI gunners just fine because i've found out exactly how to create blind spots for them by taking advantage of their simplified logic. In fact, if the gunner AI was reworked i would have less difficulty with the unrealistic sniper kill-shots, but i would have more difficulty with them tracking me in a realistic manner and shooting when it would be reasonable to do, which they currently don't do.
Just fly abeam some bombers and turn into them for a side slashing attack to see this. Ok, you might get some hits on the first run but if you repeat this from the other direction at high speed guess what happens...they are still facing the way you came from in your first pass! By the time they turn around they will be shooting in empty air and you can repeat that all day long.

Like i said before, i don't want to make it harder than it should be for the bombers. I like bombers and if the complex engine management and systems modeling in CoD is all it's rumored to be, then i'll be flying them a lot. However, i don't want to make it easier than it should be either.

I would just like to have historical gun traverse speeds for all defensive guns, so that flying a proper pursuit curve will give me an advantage over another pilot who just parks at their six and steals the kill i've been working on for the past few minutes, just like i would want a gunner AI that doesn't take sniper pot shots at 800m distance and then takes a break until the attacking fighter approaches to point blank range before he really starts to spray some gunfire at him, so that i can have a better chance of survival when flying a bomber.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Mate, there's no need to be aggressive, it just detracts from the point you are trying to make.

Not all of us are looking for easy kills against bombers, but if a particular turret was slow in real life then the simulation should reflect that and that goes for guns in swivel mounts too, depending on their weight and other factors.

Before you draw any conclusions
a) yes, i used to fly bombers online all the time whenever a mission came up with fighters that i didn't know how to fly well (i flew Fw190s almost exclusively, so in maps without 190s i was always taking a bomber) and
b) back when i was spending a lot of time with IL2 i would routinely setup a high altitude QMB mission (7500 or 10000m) with me in an early model Fw190A against four B-17s at ace AI settings...no big guns or heavy armor, not even a full Mg151 loadout, just 2xMg151,2xMgFF and the machine guns and i could kill them all just fine.

Some of the people reading this will obviously think "what does this guy's bragging have to do with the topic at hand?" and guess what, they will be right because what we like to fly and how well we do it in the simulator is not a criterion of how realistic certain aspects of the simulator are. Unfortunately, it does tend to be a criterion of what kind of changes we tend to ask for in the sim

Well, i can defeat AI gunners just fine because i've found out exactly how to create blind spots for them by taking advantage of their simplified logic. In fact, if the gunner AI was reworked i would have less difficulty with the unrealistic sniper kill-shots, but i would have more difficulty with them tracking me in a realistic manner and shooting when it would be reasonable to do, which they currently don't do.
Just fly abeam some bombers and turn into them for a side slashing attack to see this. Ok, you might get some hits on the first run but if you repeat this from the other direction at high speed guess what happens...they are still facing the way you came from in your first pass! By the time they turn around they will be shooting in empty air and you can repeat that all day long.

Like i said before, i don't want to make it harder than it should be for the bombers. I like bombers and if the complex engine management and systems modeling in CoD is all it's rumored to be, then i'll be flying them a lot. However, i don't want to make it easier than it should be either.

I would just like to have historical gun traverse speeds for all defensive guns, so that flying a proper pursuit curve will give me an advantage over another pilot who just parks at their six and steals the kill i've been working on for the past few minutes, just like i would want a gunner AI that doesn't take sniper pot shots at 800m distance and then takes a break until the attacking fighter approaches to point blank range before he really starts to spray some gunfire at him, so that i can have a better chance of survival when flying a bomber.

Don´t get me wrong if hard facts state certain aircraft turrets where slow by all means, but the original post reads very much, that all turrets should be slow and that I do not quite believe. And when I think of that twin 20mm anti aircraft gun although a ground stationed gun and weighing a lot more than any aircraft gun, how fast that moved. I just get the feeling some one is hoping to push an advantage to make up for his own lackings.
If there are referances by all means then have the proper turning speeds, but please no guess work or what some one thinks it should be, that will only start flame wars. Also it seems some are forgeting that compared to a fighter a bomber is a fairly stable gun platform. I just have to smirk how many times I have taken a gunners position in a bomber and bagged a fighter, and then read a comment from that pilot about darn sniping AI gunners, that really makes me laugh.

[Robotic Pope]

Originally Posted by Wutz

Don´t get me wrong if hard facts state certain aircraft turrets where slow by all means, but the original post reads very much, that all turrets should be slow and that I do not quite believe. makes me laugh.

No it Didn't, The OP clearly said that it would be more realistic if the turrets had their PROPER speeds, Nobody can swing a machine gun around at point and click speed. He just wants more realism, not an easier bomber to shoot down. As I am now ignored by Wutz, I write this to show others I support the original poster and don't apreciate the defensiveness and agression that Wutz has brought to this thread.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Wutz

Don´t get me wrong if hard facts state certain aircraft turrets where slow by all means, but the original post reads very much, that all turrets should be slow and that I do not quite believe. And when I think of that twin 20mm anti aircraft gun although a ground stationed gun and weighing a lot more than any aircraft gun, how fast that moved. I just get the feeling some one is hoping to push an advantage to make up for his own lackings.
If there are referances by all means then have the proper turning speeds, but please no guess work or what some one thinks it should be, that will only start flame wars. Also it seems some are forgeting that compared to a fighter a bomber is a fairly stable gun platform. I just have to smirk how many times I have taken a gunners position in a bomber and bagged a fighter, and then read a comment from that pilot about darn sniping AI gunners, that really makes me laugh.

I already said that the powered turrets in 1940 had a traverse speed of 30-40 degrees a second. There are loads of references to this all over the internet.


Funnily enough I've never seen a reference to a pilot leaving his seat to go off and fire the guns whilst still flying his plane. If you want the full real experience then you shouldn't be able to switch seats, but it's a game and you can and nobody complains about it.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by winny

I already said that the powered turrets in 1940 had a traverse speed of 30-40 degrees a second. There are loads of references to this all over the internet.


Funnily enough I've never seen a reference to a pilot leaving his seat to go off and fire the guns whilst still flying his plane. If you want the full real experience then you shouldn't be able to switch seats, but it's a game and you can and nobody complains about it.

So really for all aircraft from 1940 from all countries?? Or just your prefered ones....as to the rest well have you seen anywhere that after a accident you could hit a refly button?

[winny]

Originally Posted by Wutz

So really for all aircraft from 1940 from all countries?? Or just your prefered ones....as to the rest well have you seen anywhere that after a accident you could hit a refly button?

Pretty much, it seems like the optimum speed and I don't have a preffered bomber. If you find out any that are quicker then by all means let me know, I'm here to learn..

As for the refly option, no of course not, and it's the same argument that I just used.. ie, it's a game and there have to be compromises when it's gameplay vs. reality (I'm not crazy). I have never said that it should be a certain way, I'm just adding to the thread so we can have a discussion about it. I also said that if the turrets were modeled 100% realistically then it would make it unresponsive and fuzzy.

It's just interesting to see what peoples ideas on realism are. Personally I'm all for options.

Stop judging people by your own standards, I'm here to pass the time, spark conversation and try and add some facts to a forum that has been plagued , like most, by negativity, speculation and down right rudeness. (not aiming that one at you Wutz, just in general).

[Moggy]

I've been sent a link (thanks Handsome) to a couple of videos on youtube which explains the Defiant gunner's duties and operations. Interestingly enough, the gunner controlled his turret by means of a joystick with a button on top for the guns. He also had a switch to make the turret motor move at a greater speed but was discouraged from doing so unless it was important. Also interestingly you'll see the switch which switches control of the guns between the gunner and pilot. Of course the pilot couldn't fire directly forwards as the rounds would take off the propeller (there was an interrupter gear to prevent this), the gunner had to elevate the guns to 19° or 20° to fire above the propeller arc. The pilot also did not have a reflector sight.
The section for the Defiant starts at 6:55 in this video and goes on for the next 2 videos after in the series, enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLCs5OXY1w

[Richard]

Interesting thread. If people want realistic turret speeds etc, Oleg & Co should also implement G-forces on the gunner as well (will obviously more relevant in aircraft such as the SBD, Beau, Defiant etc etc) ...

If anyone of you have seen the Dogfights episode where Stanley "Swede" Vejtasa shot down 2 Zeros (or perhaps 3?) with his SBD Dauntless dive-bomber, you notice that his rear gunner didn't fire a shot at all. Why? Because the heavy G-forces of Vejtasa's maneuvering of the SBD kept the rear gunner pinned to his seat, unable to train his guns on the marauding Zero's..

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by Robotic Pope

You could still have the option to do both at once if you wanted. What Blackdog is saying is with better AI and AI commands you wouldn't absolutly NEED to.

Blackdog, A crew radio menu like that would be awesome, cool idea. It would bring a lot more tactics to the fight.

Here's why I lean against it. It is a crutch leading you down the wrong path. It also could give bomber pilots a bad reputation. Frankly, I wish it was true that AI gunners could not give you EAD. It's a freebie kill. They should only be allowed to inflict damage on an enemy fighter, but no EAD. Fortuneately, I can't remember the last time I had EAD from AI gunner, so maybe they fixed it in a patch. The flip to what Blackdog is saying about QMB: I can go to QMB, load up 4xp51 or 4xspit on ace mode (one in each slot for independent treatment) fly a Stucka or 110 in the QMB and I smoke/EAD each one from the rear gun position. If I left it to AI gunners, not going to happen. What I'm really saying it is a skill that should be learned by all bomber pilots. I think it is okay to use AI gunners in the begining when your learning the ropes of bombing. But at some point, you gotta dump the AI to get better defensively. If CoD does what Blackdog suggests, I fear that the incentive to improve defensive skills would disappear and that would be detriment to gameplay in the long run. If you want these commands as option, I guess that is okay. But they don't belong on full-switch/full-real servers.