I Want my 4.09 Spit FM's back.........

[TheGrunch]

Well, I don't think DT did the *wrong* thing, per-se. The maximum economical cruising speed for the Spit IX (from the manual) is 170mph, so they clearly went toward making those long missions more comfortable.

"The recommended speed for maximum range is 170 m.p.h. (147 kts) I.A.S. if the aircraft is lightly loaded. At heavy loads, especially if the rear fuselage tanks are full this speed can be increased to 200 m.p.h. (172 kts) I.A.S. without incurring a serious loss of range."

"On aircraft not fitted with interconnected throttle and propeller
controls
(a) With the supercharger switch at MS fly at the maximum
obtainable boost (not exceeding + 7 lb./sq.in.) and obtain the
recommended speed by reducing r.p.m, as
required.

NOTE.— (i) R.p.m should not be reduced below a minimum of 1,800. At low altitudes, therefore, it may be necessary to reduce boost or the recommended speed will be exceeded.

(ii) As the boost falls at high altitudes it will not be possible to maintain the recommended speed in low gear, even at maximum continuous r.p.m, and full throttle. It will then he necessary to set the supercharger switch to AUTO. Boost will thus be restored and it will be possible to reduce r.p.m, again (as outlined in(a) above).
(iii) In both low and high gears r.p.m, which promote
rough running should be avoided. "

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Well, I don't think DT did the *wrong* thing, per-se. The maximum economical cruising speed for the Spit IX (from the manual) is 170mph, so they clearly went toward making those long missions more comfortable.

"The recommended speed for maximum range is 170 m.p.h. (147 kts) I.A.S. if the aircraft is lightly loaded. At heavy loads, especially if the rear fuselage tanks are full this speed can be increased to 200 m.p.h. (172 kts) I.A.S. without incurring a serious loss of range."

"On aircraft not fitted with interconnected throttle and propeller
controls
(a) With the supercharger switch at MS fly at the maximum
obtainable boost (not exceeding + 7 lb./sq.in.) and obtain the
recommended speed by reducing r.p.m, as
required.

NOTE.— (i) R.p.m should not be reduced below a minimum of 1,800. At low altitudes, therefore, it may be necessary to reduce boost or the recommended speed will be exceeded.

(ii) As the boost falls at high altitudes it will not be possible to maintain the recommended speed in low gear, even at maximum continuous r.p.m, and full throttle. It will then he necessary to set the supercharger switch to AUTO. Boost will thus be restored and it will be possible to reduce r.p.m, again (as outlined in(a) above).
(iii) In both low and high gears r.p.m, which promote
rough running should be avoided. "

That's a big subject but you're right on the money. I won't repost everything from the other thread about the AI, but a lot of imbalances in IL2 (perceived or real) and departures from what people expect to see based on historical knowledge, are the result of the simplified engine management mechanics of a 10 year old gaming engine.

Just because there's a Spit +25lbs doesn't mean it can run that for ages like it does in the sim and this goes for every other plane too, regardless if it's allied or axis. You know what the maximum continuous power was for most Spit Mk.IXs? A mere 8-9lbs of boost! Anything higher than that was unsustainable and pilots had to be closely monitoring the coolant temperature when they exceeded it...if the coolant in the radiators exceeded 100-something degrees celsius and the water-glycol mix started boiling, bye bye cooling and welcome bubbles in the liquid clogging up the system and making cooling inefficient, even busted heat pipes due to expanding steam with resulting loss of coolant and eventually engine seizure.
Similar restrictions apply to every other aircraft in the game, whether it is a Pony running 70 inches of manifold pressure all day long, or a 190 that does the same at 1.45 Ata or whatever it is they run

Having all that spare power is meant as a "reserve bank" to use in high altitudes for when the available ambient air pressure the engine draws from is reduced, plus emergencies or delaying that stall for a few seconds in order to take a firing opportunity when you are climbing vertically behind your target.
It's definitely not something that could be used almost 24/7 in real life like we do in the sim and in that regard, it makes perfect sense that the real life aircraft wouldn't have their trim adjusted by the ground mechanic for a speed range that was unsustainable due to engine restrictions.

That kind of engine limitations is one of the things i most eagerly await in the new sim, because it doesn't only add a new layer of realistic challenges but also gives us new things to occupy ourselves with. Today a good virtual pilot is one who flies well, shoots well, is a solid tactician or a combination of the above...with the arrival of CoD a good pilot will also be the one who knows how much he can stress his aircraft's subsystems without breaking them.
For example you could be bounced by a player in a superior performing plane but the added workload alone might eventually turn the tables on him, since just because some plane is more maneuverable or faster doesn't mean it was easy to be flown that way.

I expect a lot of the match-ups will be totally changed in regards to that. For example, when the new series branches out into 1943-late war it will be great fun learning the ropes all over again, with the better performing but exclusively manually controlled allied fighters versus the lesser performing but fully automatic axis ones.

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Just because there's a Spit +25lbs doesn't mean it can run that for ages like it does in the sim and this goes for every other plane too, regardless if it's allied or axis. You know what the maximum continuous power was for most Spit Mk.IXs? A mere 8-9lbs of boost!

Indeed, take-off power for any mark of Spit is usually about +7-+9 pounds per square inch of boost. Doesn't work in the game, but never mind. That's more a question of the scales on the gauges not really matching up with the throttle axes the way they ought to because it's just a sim.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Well, I don't think DT did the *wrong* thing, per-se. The maximum economical cruising speed for the Spit IX (from the manual) is 170mph, so they clearly went toward making those long missions more comfortable.

"The recommended speed for maximum range is 170 m.p.h. (147 kts) I.A.S. if the aircraft is lightly loaded. At heavy loads, especially if the rear fuselage tanks are full this speed can be increased to 200 m.p.h. (172 kts) I.A.S. without incurring a serious loss of range."

"On aircraft not fitted with interconnected throttle and propeller
controls
(a) With the supercharger switch at MS fly at the maximum
obtainable boost (not exceeding + 7 lb./sq.in.) and obtain the
recommended speed by reducing r.p.m, as
required.

NOTE.— (i) R.p.m should not be reduced below a minimum of 1,800. At low altitudes, therefore, it may be necessary to reduce boost or the recommended speed will be exceeded.

(ii) As the boost falls at high altitudes it will not be possible to maintain the recommended speed in low gear, even at maximum continuous r.p.m, and full throttle. It will then he necessary to set the supercharger switch to AUTO. Boost will thus be restored and it will be possible to reduce r.p.m, again (as outlined in(a) above).
(iii) In both low and high gears r.p.m, which promote
rough running should be avoided. "

Roger that, however there's a massive difference between 170mph at 3000rpm and 170mph at the most economical rpm; around about 1800.

The torque effects will be VERY different.

If the current flight model is geared for this figure at 3000rpm then it's wrong - the best cruise settings for the Mk V (I don't have the data for the IX) were:

- 230mph IAS, +2.75lb, 1800rpm @ 2000ft = 35 gallons per hour
- 200mph IAS, -1.5lb, 1800rpm @ 10,000ft = 29 gallons per hour
- 250mph IAS, +3.75lb, 2000rpm @ 10,000ft = 42 gallons per hour
- 200mph IAS, -1.75lb, 2200rpm @ 20,000ft = 36 gallons per hour
- 230mph IAS, +1.5lb, 2400rpm @ 20,000ft = 46 gallons per hour
- 180mph IAS, -3.25lb, 2850rpm @ 30,000ft = 41 gallons per hour

It seems that a minimum of 200mph was recommended, with 230-250 preffered. This represents cruise over friendly/neutral territory; there's no way any self respecting Spitfire pilot wandered around over enemy ground at 170mph - combat cruise should be faster still than even these airspeeds I have given, and at higher revs and boost. I'll see what figures I can find for that, if any.

My point still stands which is - as you can see - even at these higher speeds we're not at full rpm so torque effects are reduced again, therefore, less need to correct for it in the airframe.

I suspect that TD have gotten their spits set up incorrectly on 2 counts:

1) a/c inherently trimmed at far too low a cruise speed

2) compounded by these being attained at much lower rpm in reality - therefore TD are correcting for too much torque at that airspeed.

Cheers.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

I suspect that TD have gotten their spits set up incorrectly on 2 counts:

1) a/c inherently trimmed at far too low a cruise speed

2) compounded by these being attained at much lower rpm in reality - therefore TD are correcting for too much torque at that airspeed.

Cheers.

agreed 100%

this is my only issue with the spit in 4.10.

the aerilon roll that just wasn't the case irl.

before anyone jumps on me for be being a spitwhiner, ask fenrir what my favourite plane is...(clue, it's blue)

i want the Fw's (not my fav, but up there) acceleration to be accurate, i want the spits to be able to cruise without ludicrous aerilon input.

i've never bought into the whole red/blue thing, because i think that all who do are idiots (of which there are many in this thread), who deny themselves half the game, whatever half.

fools.

[kimosabi]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

before anyone jumps on me for be being a spitwhiner, ask fenrir what my favourite plane is...(clue, it's blue)

I know I know, pick me pick me! Messerschmidt BF 109 F4!

Fenrir, you have informed me greatly goddammit.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by kimosabi

I know I know, pick me pick me! Messerschmidt BF 109 F4!

we have a winner

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

It seems that a minimum of 200mph was recommended, with 230-250 preffered. This represents cruise over friendly/neutral territory; there's no way any self respecting Spitfire pilot wandered around over enemy ground at 170mph - combat cruise should be faster still than even these airspeeds I have given, and at higher revs and boost. I'll see what figures I can find for that, if any.

Agreed. Unfortunately the Spit IX manual only mentions the MP/RPM settings for most economical cruise speed...no doubt operational settings were discovered by the same method, however, setting +7 boost and reducing RPMs to achieve the desired cruising speed.

[Aullido]

I am far of being a good pilot, just curious.

How does the lack of pilot fatigue to high Gs affects tactics?.

Is it more important than this new adjust to the FM?.

[TheGrunch]

Pulling 2+ Gs and indeed high stick-loads for extended periods is absolutely exhausting, by all accounts. That would affect a pilot's vision, resistance to blackouts and their ability to pull the lbs needed to make such high-G turns in the first place.