If UBI's DRM scheme is unacceptable...

[addman]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

What you proposed is a bit too dependent on the internet for my taste (being online to uninstall mainly, the rest i find acceptable), others may find it ok though and it's still better than a constant connectivity requirement.

I actually outlined my idea of how an online activated version could work with minimal hassle for the player, which to be honest is not my idea that much. It's actually based on the way Starcraft 2 works with a small but important change tailored to the importance of single player mode for many flight simmers.

What you do with SC2 is create a free battlenet account, tie your CD-key to it and login with this account when you run it.
However, if your internet access is disabled you get the option to enable offline mode.

Advantages:
1) Easy, one time activation. No limited activation/deactivation business, rootkits or registry keys that monitor your PC components and stop working the time you install a hardware upgrade because the key doesn't match with your latest hardware components.
2) You can download the installation files by logging into your battlenet account even if you don't have the physical installation disk at hand or because you want to install on a different PC.
3) You can log in with your account from other PCs than your own (eg, when playing against friends in a LAN party or contest).
4) You can play against the AI when the internet is down (clarification on this below however).

Disadvantages:
1) Everything multiplayer goes through battlenet, meaning i could be playing against a person in the same room and still have lag. There's no direct LAN support in order to prevent people from totally sidestepping the authentication, but this is worked on. A proposed solution is to connect to battlenet first for authentication, then revert to LAN mode once the players are invited into the game lobby.
2) You can't activate if your internet is down for whatever reason.
3) In order to enable offline mode you first need to connect on game start-up. Yes, you first need to go online each time before offline mode is available, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose of it if you are on an extended downtime.

Number 3 is my main gripe with it (it's actually pretty stupid the way it works in that regard), but i ended up buying the game because all i do with it is multiplayer with and against some friends, among ourselves or online on battlenet.

So why did i buy it if i dislike DRM so much? The answer is that it's far from a perfect system but it works well enough for what i want to do.This is also a very important factor when considering DRM, how do you intend to play the game?
If i was interested primarily in the single player mode, then i would find it unacceptable having to connect on each game launch. However, SC2 just like the original SC is mainly a multiplayer game. It has a nice storyline and amazing cutscenes in the single player campaign, but you can burn through it within a week tops. The real value of the game lies in its well-balanced unit mix that creates a highly dynamic rock-paper-scissors type of multiplayer.

However, since flight sims have a strong single player component and Oleg Maddox said himself that 80% of IL2's sales were offline players even if they had access to the internet, if we copied SC2's system we'd have to make sure the people who fly offline and/or lack access to the internet due to travelling/work/etc are not getting shut out, because this translates directly to lost sales amid the 80% the offliners constitute.

What i would do for SoW is copy SC2's system almost verbatim with two small but important changes:
1) Having a single authentication server in place of battlenet. No need for the publisher to handle all the multiplayer network traffic and pay the associated bills, when just an integrated, in-game server browser similar to Hyperlobby would be enough.
2) Validate the game online on each launch, but only as long as an internet connection is already present. If no internet connection is available but the installation is already activated, skip straight to the offline mode. And if you are really worried about people exploiting this to share their cd-keys, make it expire after one month. One log-in needed per month would be manageable even for people who travel a lot and play on gaming laptops, or those who suffer connection problems.

The bottom line is that all these big publishing companies are not stupid. If we make it clear that their games won't sell well if they ship with troublesome features, they will change them sooner or later and come up with something clever enough to protect the game without making it a pain to use for the legitimate buyers. You are the customer, you can demand the inclusion of a few things that work in your convenience's favor


Anyway, i think i've said more than enough on this issue and made my point as clear as it can be made. I'm out of this thread, thanks for keeping it civil everyone

+1
One time activation should be "doable" for most people. Constant authentication might be a problem for some. Should that be the consensus?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by addman

One time activation should be "doable" for most people. Constant authentication might be a problem for some. Should that be the consensus?

err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to activate/ deactivate and authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

[Trumper]

If the game is sensibly priced so that the majority can afford the original version then why bother with piracy.
You will ALWAYS have those that won't pay you can't legislate for that BUT you can reduce their popularity by pricing so it's not an attractive option.
Cheesing off the majority to fight a minority is just daft.
If that happened it may encourage more people to wait a year or so to see what happens and get it cheaper in the sales when all the bugs have been ironed out.

[Avimimus]

Btw. It is worth noting that the first generations of flight sims were produced with less DRM and markets that were many times smaller. In fact, flight sims were much more popular when the markets were tiny in the 1990s.

Of course, the amount of labour required and overall fidelity was also lower (smaller budgets) - but we shouldn't pretend that the genre won't exist without invasive DRM.

[Avimimus]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Avimimus

Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.

I hate to rain on your parade there buddy, but how did you extrapolate all that from my post you quoted?

out in the rural or remote community of Canada? how do they get their email then?



@yellownet

the oignal part you probably missed was, "2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline)."
and the response was "Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan."

You've done yourself a misservice with your response to that

let me ask you on your "The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit."; do you complain because you have to use nVidia drivers with nVidia cards, and have no option to use ATI instead... and vica versa? Or, (this bit is for Avimimus as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?

[KG26_Alpha]

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.




.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

We do keep trying to get that across... yet something seems to go missing on the way.
Does anyone actually read the EULA, that thing you have to agree to for the install to proceed?

[Wolf_Rider]

@ KG26_Alpha

see what I mean

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

.

I think most people are aware of this. And it's just those "terms" that we're talking about.

Basically if you want to play the game you are forced to install other software that you have no control over at all and that can do pretty much anything in your system without you knowing.
Is it so difficult to understand that some people doesn't like that and just wants to buy a clean game?