Friday 2010-12-24 Dev. update and Discussion

[DoolittleRaider]

I've been meaning to ask for some time, and hope it's not been asked /answered already elsewhere...but...I can find no reference pictures/profiles of Bf110's with the Unit (geschwader) Code letters on the port side of the aircraft, forward of the cockpit.

Nor have I seen the individual acft and Stab/Staffel code letters forward of the cockpit on the starboard side.

I'm wondering why the 110's in SOW:BofB are skinned this way.

I assume the 110 depicted in this week's Update is meant to be the aircraft of ZG26 Geschwaderkommodore (Obstlt Joachim-Friedrich Huth, 14.12.39 - 1.11.40), 3U+AA, with the second A indicating geschwader stab (command staff) and first A being the first aircraft of that stab….however, that first “A” would have been blue, not green. All Geschwader Stab individual aircraft letters would have been blue. For example, see profile below of one ZG26 Commander’s aircraft:


Here you will find excruciatingly detailed information on ZG26 Bf110 aircraft Code lettering:http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/C...affe_ZG26.html


Additionally, here at the "Wings Pallette" site are 122 profiles of 110's, and I don’t believe there are any showing Unit/acft Code letters placed forward of the cockpit as in the SOW:BofB screen capture. http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/318/2
Here's just one other example from those 122:


Does 1C have some other historical reference(s) supporting the 110 in the screencapture as being authenthically/uniquely painted with a Green acft letter, and more significantly with the Code letters forward of the cockpit? I do not mean to be nitpicking, but historical accuracy is one of the strengths of IL-2 and I am sure that is a major goal of SOW:BOB. I am not an expert on Luftwaffe aircraft markings, although I've done a lot of research for some Projects. I would welcome learning more from an exchange about this matter.

[philip.ed]

Doolittle, I'm under the impression it's just there to show what can be done with regards to nose art/codes

[DoolittleRaider]

Thanks. I didn't read enough pages upon return from weekend holidays to get to the posts about this matter yesterday.

Still, I'm interested in knowing what degree of accuracy is being sought for the SOW:BOB default aircraft skins. It's great that they are incorporating user flexibility in assigning "Nose Art", historical or otherwise, but I'd like to be comfortable that the Default skins will be historically detailed and as accurate as possible in aircraft markings, etc. After all, the Luftwaffe had an almost insanely detailed and somewhat complex marking format/procedure. The RAF system was a wee bit simpler, but I have the same concern for SOW:BOB accuracy in RAF acft markings....a key aspect of the RAF system is the placement of the individual aircraft (Spits, Hurricanes, Gladiators, etc) Serial Numbers on the aft fuselage. Individual acft histories, unit assignments, and ultimate fates are available with some research. For example, the history of every single Spitfire ever produced can be found here:
http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/home.htm

[philip.ed]

I agree.
I pointed out last week that the markings for the 32 squadron Hurricane were wrong in size and shape, so I hope this is all being looked into

[csThor]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

I've been meaning to ask for some time, and hope it's not been asked /answered already elsewhere...but...I can find no reference pictures/profiles of Bf110's with the Unit (geschwader) Code letters on the port side of the aircraft, forward of the cockpit.

Nor have I seen the individual acft and Stab/Staffel code letters forward of the cockpit on the starboard side.

I'm wondering why the 110's in SOW:BofB are skinned this way.

I assume the 110 depicted in this week's Update is meant to be the aircraft of ZG26 Geschwaderkommodore (Obstlt Joachim-Friedrich Huth, 14.12.39 - 1.11.40), 3U+AA, with the second A indicating geschwader stab (command staff) and first A being the first aircraft of that stab….however, that first “A” would have been blue, not green. All Geschwader Stab individual aircraft letters would have been blue. For example, see profile below of one ZG26 Commander’s aircraft:


Here you will find excruciatingly detailed information on ZG26 Bf110 aircraft Code lettering:http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/C...affe_ZG26.html


Additionally, here at the "Wings Pallette" site are 122 profiles of 110's, and I don’t believe there are any showing Unit/acft Code letters placed forward of the cockpit as in the SOW:BofB screen capture. http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/318/2
Here's just one other example from those 122:


Does 1C have some other historical reference(s) supporting the 110 in the screencapture as being authenthically/uniquely painted with a Green acft letter, and more significantly with the Code letters forward of the cockpit? I do not mean to be nitpicking, but historical accuracy is one of the strengths of IL-2 and I am sure that is a major goal of SOW:BOB. I am not an expert on Luftwaffe aircraft markings, although I've done a lot of research for some Projects. I would welcome learning more from an exchange about this matter.

Like I told Manuc the AA in the very front is merely an indication that there is a position where markings can be applied. SoW is going to be very flexible in this regard ... and Stab I./ZG 26 is known to have used fighter-style staff markings there (in addition to the code characters on the fuselage).

As for the marking colours ... you can select any kind of colour on any kind of aircraft. Which means it's up to the mission builder or player to select the appropriate colour.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by csThor

Like I told Manuc the AA in the very front is merely an indication that there is a position where markings can be applied. SoW is going to be very flexible in this regard ... and Stab I./ZG 26 is known to have used fighter-style staff markings there (in addition to the code characters on the fuselage).

As for the marking colours ... you can select any kind of colour on any kind of aircraft. Which means it's up to the mission builder or player to select the appropriate colour.

Thanks for the explanation. Again, I appreciate the great flexibility in decorating the acft/skins... The options will be appreciated by all. I assume Skinners will also find many matters/steps easier in BOB than in IL2.

My main comment/concern is that the default aircraft in SOW:BOB, those which will be used in the Campaign and Missions which will come with SOW:BOB, will all be historically accurate.

I'm not complaining at all...just pointing out that the detailed historical documentation on aircraft markings is readily available from quite a large number of Sites. I'm hoping that given the RELATIVELY few units and aircraft types involved in BofB, such accuracy will be incorporated, at release of SOW:BOB, in the default aircraft skins,missions and campaigns.

Thanks for listening.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

Thanks for the explanation. Again, I appreciate the great flexibility in decorating the acft/skins... The options will be appreciated by all. I assume Skinners will also find many matters/steps easier in BOB than in IL2.

My main comment/concern is that the default aircraft in SOW:BOB, those which will be used in the Campaign and Missions which will come with SOW:BOB, will all be historically accurate.

I'm not complaining at all...just pointing out that the detailed historical documentation on aircraft markings is readily available from quite a large number of Sites. I'm hoping that given the RELATIVELY few units and aircraft types involved in BofB, such accuracy will be incorporated, at release of SOW:BOB, in the default aircraft skins,missions and campaigns.

Thanks for listening.

I made the german unit emblems (most of them, anyway) and wrote as detailed manuals on emblems, tactical markings and their application as I could make them for Maddox Games. I've already seen a few more things and what I see I like.

[DoolittleRaider]

Interesting to hear that you have worked with Maddox team on SOW:BOB timeframe Luftwaffe markings. I hope you don't mind an additional question...

In this article reporting an interview with Oleg, the Screen capture of a SOW:BOB Bf110 shows one with the markings M8+BC. http://spread-wings.ru/index.php?opt...d=364&Itemid=1

That would be the Gruppe adjutant of II Gruppe of ZG76. The green B is the correct color for a member of any of the ZG76’s Gruppe Stab’s, including II./ZG76.
Additionally, however, by the time of the Battle of Britain, II Gruppe would have applied its distinctive shark’s teeth on the nose…I believe most of the II./ZG76 110’s in BofB would have had the teeth.


Here is a II./ZG76 110 Profile notated as being in the May 1940 timeframe:



May 40 photo:




Another profile, in 1941:


Question....Will SOW:BOB have the teeth markings on default Bf110’s (of II./ZG76)?
Don't mean to hijack this thread. If I have further question or suggestion, I'll start a new/separate thread.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

That would be the Gruppe adjutant of II Gruppe of ZG76. The green B is the correct color for a member of any of the ZG76’s Gruppe Stab’s, including II./ZG76.
Additionally, however, by the time of the Battle of Britain, II Gruppe would have applied its distinctive shark’s teeth on the nose…I believe most of the II./ZG76 110’s in BofB would have had the teeth.

Don't mean to hijack this thread. If I have further question or suggestion, I'll start a new/separate thread.

I have included various photos of ZG76's 110s with the sharkmouth in the documentation I wrote. I can, however, not say if they're included in SoW or not. OTOH I seem to remember an earlier development shot of a 110 with the ZG 76 sharkmouth.

[DoolittleRaider]

Just FYI, I've done more extensive research, and received confirmation from experts on the matter, that there is no evidence of there having been any II./ZG76 aircraft during the the Battle of Britain (or the French Campaign) which did not have the shark teeth. I'll keep my fingers crossed for BofB... Thanks for your comments and information on your contribution to SOW:BofB