Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Oktoberfest]

Well, as John Lennon said, Imagine...

I think I'm happy to live in a peaceful Europe, with friends from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Croatia, Poland, England, Ireland, etc... all joining in a virtual sky to fight with and against, but where the end of the fight is usually join the girlfriend and not sleeping on a muddy field, half frozen with shells incoming...

What was good in WW2 ? Nations grew adult and started talking together. Peace was paid at the cost of millions of lives, and just because those people allowed me to have friends in Europe and live in peace, I have the deepest respect for them.

[Splitter]

Blackdog,

There are problems with your comparisons to today, but not flaming.

Most of the soldiers fighting today in the Middle East are very well informed and very well educated compared to the men fighting in WWII. They are making informed decisions...and by in large they want to stay and finish the job.

Perhaps they have seen enough of the world to understand the dangers out there better than people sitting at home? A lot of the young men who come home find it very hard to connect with people their own age who did not go into the service.

You theorize that a higher incidence of PTSD and related disorders are somehow connected to morally "suspect" wars. I would theorize that the higher incidence of some of these disorders is from enemy tactics. In WWII, the enemy wore a uniform. In later conflicts, the enemy tried to blend in with the population and the soldiers were constantly "on guard".

Studies I read back in the day were pretty clear that every soldier is subject to some form of battle fatigue and every soldier will begin to suffer the effects if left in combat for two weeks. In many wars today, there is no real safe haven, the civilians are potential threats, and tours have been extended.

I can only speak for American soldiers and I know or have met many. They are probably the most adamant segment of our society when it comes to seeing the present day wars through to a successful conclusion.

They understand, probably better than most others, who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. And they say we need to fight. That should tell us something.

Like I said in other posts, separate the soldier from the leadership. You can say that the wars are morally suspect (I know you a bit from your postings and know that you still honor the solders), that's a comment on the leadership in various countries. Fine, that's your opinion and obviously not what we are discussing here.

But you cannot say that the soldiers are suffering from some sort of moral dilemma and that is somehow causing them problems. Far from it, they are motivated and committed to the cause.

Come to one of our wounded warrior shoots (you get the flight, I'll pick up the lodging ). Not only will you get your hands on some pretty cool hardware, but you will see some soldiers who want nothing more than to get back out there with their unit. They may be missing legs, arms, an eye, whatever....even after all of that they want to go back and fight. Yes, it is enough to bring a grown man to tears when you see it.

There is not much of a moral debate going on among the Armed Forces. We may be a bit divided at home, but the people out defending us are pretty united in their commitment.

Wars are terrible and some more than others. I think of the fighter pilots in WWII and can see why they were maybe a bit different than the common ground soldier. The pilots usually did have something of a safe haven at their base. They "usually" did not actually see the people they killed. There seemed to be a more "gentlemanly" aspect to the pilots, a mutual respect. In many cases at least.

Maybe that makes it easier to fly for both sides in a sim?

Then I think about the German pilots and what they went through. I am not minimizing any Allied service, but German pilots could not complete a tour and go home or be re-assigned. They flew until the war ended, they died, or they were wounded too badly to fly. There was no "end in sight" for the German pilots. That must have been very taxing indeed....a lot of them ran up against the odds at some point maybe hundreds of missions into their career. Staggering to think about.

Splitter

[Richie]

Gunther Rall was hounded by the Gestapo many times because his wife was helping Jews. Nothing was done however because he was such an asset. One of the commanders of a JG 53 unit was married to a Jewish girl, Goring had them all put this stupid red band of same around the nose of their 109s, you can see it in the SOW video. Gordon Gallob was a hated Jadgeschwader leader because he was such a fanatic. He followed rules to the letter and all he did was get many fighter pilots killed. The big joke is his father was Scotish. He probably wanted to over prove himself to the brass. In here anytime you say positive things about a German you'll get blasted witch is understandable but theirs some that were very good men, Trautloft, Galland, Rall, Molders, Barkhorn, Steinhoff, Spoden, Neumann. They were just fighting for they bad side. Any smart thinking man would realize that the leader of his country is crazy when men are eating the horses and he's saying we are going win Russia. You keep fighting with your friends and for your country.

[BK_JG27_Treiber]

Another thing about JG 53: Goring ordered Stab/JG 53 to remove the Pik As from their planes because he heard a rumor that the commander of the flight's wife was Jewish. Stab/JG 53 responded by also removing the hakenkreuz from their aircraft. Their protest worked, and they got to put the Pik As back on their aircraft.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by JG52Driver

Another thing about JG 53: Goring ordered Stab/JG 53 to remove the Pik As from their planes because he heard a rumor that the commander of the flight's wife was Jewish. Stab/JG 53 responded by also removing the hakenkreuz from their aircraft. Their protest worked, and they got to put the Pik As back on their aircraft.

Yep here is a photo of one - (no hakenkreuz but there seems to be a painted over section where one previously existed):




Shame all these captured 109's were melted down for the metal ... but I suppose there was a war on.

[Richie]

Great picture.

[BK_JG27_Treiber]

Great picture, but are you sure it's from Stab/JG 53? The Gruppe insignia seems to indicate III Gruppe to me.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by JG52Driver

Great picture, but are you sure it's from Stab/JG 53? The Gruppe insignia seems to indicate III Gruppe to me.

Well the reference to the photo said:

Bf 109 E 4 "White 5" of 3rd Gruppe/JG 53 (53rd Fighter wing, possibly based in Guernsey), shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Schulte and the aircraft crash landed near Manston airfield.