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| IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator. |
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#1
08-31-2010, 12:21 PM
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I must say it will be 1c,as why would they be using 1c forum,s
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#2
09-01-2010, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
I second the posts in this topic though. I will not buy this from Ubisoft or Steam or any other release with crazy DRM lockdown. Are there any news on this? The point is this. I see Steam as a spyware and don't want it running on my system. With ubisoft... we all knew the issues with it it's DRM attempts. I just want a simple game that I can install and put the disk away again. In fact I don't even have an optical drive attached to my workstation anymore and most of my CD's and DVD's are broken. So if things don't work out in europe to me the only options are: 1. Getting an english release through 1c or any other retailer without crazy DRM or 2. Buying the russian version and play with a cracked english one. I'm German and I don't mind playing an english version. But I can't speak russian so sadly that's out of the question... I want to support the developers and honest publishers with my money, not a publisher who treats PAYING customers like pirates. It shouldn't be the people who buy the game suffering from stupid DRM. If anything it should be the people NOT paying for the game. I'd love to pre-order this game DRM free in english directly from the developers / 1c (I don't mind a key for multiplayer or anything but no rootkits, crazy DRM locks like activations or forced on-line only play etc.). I wouldn't even mind sending the money straight to Oleg himself and getting a copy. I just definately won't buy it if it's coming from the people at ubi or any other publisher that has nothing else to do other than developing DRM schemes. This goes especially for European releases and even more so for German ones. We pay really high prices here, much more than any other country usually, for example the USA or UK (a ton cheaper), even for english titles. And on top of that we get our asses kicked for paying more. No thanks. A game's just bit's and bytes but still some publishers are treating the customers who payed for a game worse than... poop. I don't want to depend on remote servers and ask some 3rd party if I am allowed to play the game that I bought. I'm sure anyone can understand this at least a little bit. Last edited by Madfish; 09-01-2010 at 05:46 PM.
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#3
09-01-2010, 10:24 PM
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Wishing for a game without any copy protection nowadays is to be blunt... unreal.
__________________
LEVEL BOMBING MANUAL v2.0 | Dedicated Bomber Squadron 'MUSTANG' - compilation of online air victories
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#4
09-01-2010, 11:03 PM
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If you go looking for free software and look at the number of downloads that are constantly being ripped off on popular software, music, videos and other media site... it is in the millions 24/7 at broadband speeds constantly.
Piracy is a huge problem, huge is not adequate "gargantuan" still doesn't descirbe it. Those millions of people that are constantly stealing media aren't buying media. In America the entire music scene has changed. The most popular music is pre-teen and rap. That isn't true, but those are the people buying the music. That's why artists targeting pre-teens and rap rule the Grammys. The people that are more computer literate are stealing all they want from share sites. So, the true figures for what music is or isn't popular is not relative to the number of buyers. I have a friend that plays guitar in a pretty well recognized group. He says, "If we didn't do live performances constantly we couldn't survive. We see hundreds of thousands of downloads for our music, but we get paid nada. We are tied to road trips and nightclub performances, just to make a living." The Eagle Dynamics developers http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ have their methods and they are invasive, but you definitely don't see their stuff all over the web for free sharing. I bought the LockOn, but never purchased anything after that. At the time I hated the piracy locks, but I understand they are improved. Regardless... I didn't really care that much for the fast movers anyway. Whatever Oleg has to do, to protect his software I will go along with. I hope he can protect his software, because he deserves to be paid fairly. The software protection environment has changed and protection of intellectual rights requires more radical methods. All the jibe about a pop in CD or DVD only (nowadays)... We all know that won't get the job done, just like we know we need a virus scan (nowadays), if we participate on the internet. Last edited by nearmiss; 09-01-2010 at 11:10 PM.
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#5
09-02-2010, 12:00 AM
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First of all, Steam makes it harder to mod. Ok, but what's good about that? Mods and custom content are part of what kept IL-2, no almost any decent game out there, alive. And even if you don't like mods... no game makes it necessary to be modded so that's not a point really.
Steam has disappointed me many times already. Also I don't like buying not a product but a very questionable download license that can be revoked at any time. Not happening. On top of all you basically get spy and adware installed on your system AND steam is dangerous because if it'd succeed we would have a total monoculture when it comes to distribution. If you like that, fine, I don't. When it comes to DRM and piracy. Piracy is not a problem at all. A ton of research has been done on that topic and even games companies, mostly indie ones, admit to these facts. In fact many people wouldn't buy they game anyways, they pirate it, yes, but they wouldn't buy it if they couldn't pirate it. So usually it's NOT stealing a sale, all it does is making the game more popular so more people WILL buy it. Secondly it was estimated that most pirates download 4-5 games per month in average. Valid players buy 2-3 games per year in average. Most pirates don't even play games seriously or at all. Many of them start a game and quit it after 3 days. Only a very few amazingly popular games are being pirated and played. And if that is the case then mostly because of DRM. Which means many people, myself included, needed to actually crack or download a "clean" version just to be able to play a game they BOUGHT. On the other hand side I haven't seen any of these games coming out with under at least 10 million profit. So there can't be much harm done here. Remember what economy is like: We can't generate absurd amounts of profit from material and physical labor and transfer it to effortless digital copies of the same bits and bytes. That will essentially draw out all money from the real industry and transfer it to a bits & bytes bubble. No one can eat games. No one can sleep on them or drive them to work. Game studios and publishers seriously need to throttle down their shareholder revenues. Look at Blizzard Activision, Ubi, EA, even SEGA! A company that everyone thought was dead - they're raking in absurd amounts of money and that with tinkered financial reports! Yes, this game is different. It's a niche product and I tried to make suggestions on how to get it out of there (game modes). But seriously, simmers are hardcore fans and they will not pirate a game that easily. Only people who cannot pay for it anyways will. That's not really a lost sale. Asking for a DRM free game is far from blunt. I said I will pay so what right do they have to DRM me for this? None. On the other hand side I will not pay a penny and maybe grad it after years for a few bucks if they do DRM it. It's their choice. One sidenote on your mention of music. Music has gotten sick. Originally music was inteded to be copied. It was made to be sung and copied and performed. That is how it originated, how it integrated into the culture and how it grew. Nowadays artists usually steal. They steal the techniques, they steal music theory and research, they even steal inspiration or simply cover the hell out of "forgotten glory". But they expect everyone to pay? I don't think that will happen. Ever. People don't have to be computer smart to dislike that industry. They just have to be intelligent. The music industry doesn't do anything for the user. They even hinder him. I can't count the number of broken CD's I have. They won't give me a cheap exchange either. Copying the CD as my personal backup is illegal though and the industry hates lossless standards just so they can sell the same song over and over again. Your friends are probably just bad at promotion or music or their music is so niche that they just can't live off of it. Big deal, get real and get a job. I do art as well but can't live off of it. So I do a normal job. What's the problem with that? I dislike the princess syndrome - not everyone can be that lucky to earn millions in their sleep! If they need help I could lend them a hand. You can PM me and I can look over their marketing strategies and overall quality of covers, artworks, promotion, website, viral marketing etc. Next is eaglydynamics. I don't see a game that hasn't been cracked from them. Note: Multiplayer usually doesn't work. Rarely pirated titles support multiplayer but in general I don't see where they had more success fighting piracy than anyone else out there. And please keep in mind: Hardcore flight sims are a niche product! No one... plays them. A very small minority. So the fact that even their stuff has been cracked means that it's basically pointless to be an ass to your customers just for your own profit. We could go on about this for days but usually the defenders are not reasonable anyways. I could tell you for example what costs are added just for copy protection. Copy protection that usually does nothing! At least nothing good. The fact for me is: if this title will get released under reasonable conditions I will pay, play and promote. If it doesn't I will not pay, not play and warn everyone to stay the hell away from it. There are a ton of other games out there and there's also real life. I don't have to pay money for being kicked in the butt. Paying customers should be treated with respect. That's an imperative in the material world, where people would sue you to death if you deliver such low quality and intrude into their personal lives and it shouldn't be any different in the digital sphere either. Sorry for that lenghy post and the strong language but I hope I made some understandable points. If this discussion goes on I might add another post with good research material and statistics and then just drop it, wait and eventually stay away from the game. I will only play this if it's not intruding my computer, rootkitting it, spying on me, my hardware, my software and habits as well as not employing some messed up server side authorization crap that prevents me from playing it should I not have an internet connection or something like that. When I buy a game, I want to get a disc or download, install it and forget about it. Not worrying about what might happen if there is bad weather, if an earthquake takes out the authorization servers or if someone just doesn't like me and blocks my account for no reason. On the other hand side I do know that I bought a number (more than 10!) of games even multiple times already. Even sims (For example Freespace etc. I bought that about 3 times, along with Freespace 2) and SoW could be one of them because I'd want to get my girlfriend to try it out and fly with me I suppose. That said it's up to them and I really hope people would rise their heads and not accept that slavery. I was hoping slavery is a thing of the past but recently it got more and more popular again with the media industry. Best regards, Madfish Last edited by Madfish; 09-02-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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#6
09-02-2010, 12:29 AM
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...slavery? The media industry forces you to work for their purposes and in exchange provides your food and shelter? I realise that English isn't your first language (but I only know this because you said you're German somewhere else, I wouldn't have guessed from your writing) but that's not the right word to use to describe the media industry...
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#7
09-02-2010, 12:38 AM
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Sins of a Solar Empire was released without any copy protection and was one of the top games of the year. The publishers logic was DRM simply interferes with genuine sales as the people that hack take breaking copy protection as a challenge and would never buy it anyway. It worked for them. The recent fascination with DRM is simply the result of too many accounting and lawyer types who tend to be control freaks conniving their way into executive positions in big corporations 
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#8
09-02-2010, 12:52 AM
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Waaaah, you killed my monster post!
But +1 for what you said, I own Sins of the Solar Empire with all addons as well as the combo-box release Sins of the Solar Empire Trinity. So thanks for reminding me of this one as it is another good example for a game that was kind of niche but actually very successful from there without any disturbing copy protection. I wish more game developers and publishers would actually deliver great quality and get the sales they deserve instead of whining over piracy because they produced crap and forgot about it as soon as it was released, wondering why people get mad and refuse to buy their title full price.
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#9
09-02-2010, 03:14 AM
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I think all of you are correct. On one hand, we have situations like the humble bundle fiasco , where a bunch of indy developers released their games in a pack and told people "give us whatever amount you think it's fair". Well, there was about 20 games in there and a lot of people were minimal amounts, one dollar or even less.
Some people lack the disposable income, some are just cheapskates and some suffer from an entitlement complex. And piracy does cost sales and even the closing down of studios and jobs. On the other hand, the reason piracy is so detrimental is, guess who, the publishing industry itself! For example, Troika games made the two vampire: the masquerade games before closing down, a transfer of a pen-and-paper RPG game to the PC. Small studio, cool games, they still didn't make it even though they were signed under a bigger company. Why? Because developers get paid minimal amounts compared to what the company gets and when they can't make what the company wants, the studio closes down. It's the same in music as well, where many artists take a few cents per CD sold while the recording company gets the big cash. This story has happened before, will happen again and if you take a good look at it, it's usually studios that make great games which the publishers don't like. Why? Because the publisher's definition of a great game is different from the gamer's definition of the same. For the publisher a short, half-finished, DLC capable game with minimal replay value that will justify its high price on graphics and sounds alone is best, because it will give that "it was good but not enough" feeling, so that you can buy the sequel in as less time as a few months. For the gamers, a great game is one that is focused on the core elements necessary for the gameplay experience, leaving the rest to be improved along the way as more powerful PCs become available, having good support, replayability and a long life...just like IL-2. The reasons are simple...when you sign up with a big publisher like EA or Ubi, you pretty much give them free reign to do whatever they want with how the end product will be presented and lose most of your creative license as a developer. Your job is to provide content, meet deadlines and deliver products that cater to as much people as possible instead of products that cater to parts of the gamer demographic but are actually focused enough to do a good job...in that order of importance if i may add. So for example, if the deadlines can't be met the content gets axed and then sold separately as DLC. When the people who expect a certain game to belong in a certain genre, or the gamers simply don't find it compliant to the standards outlined above, the product is faulty in content, user-friendliness and functionality, etc, then the people with the most interest in having a focused game abandon it. These are the people who usually buy games however. The people that the companies try to lure to their products in droves are not the ones who will buy games, or to put it more accurately, they have a higher percentage of pirates among them...the part of gamers that mostly cares about visuals and sounds to the expense of everything else, who go through games like t-shirts in summer and of course, they can't afford to buy that many games. The thing is that if they learn how to pirate once, they have learned it for life and now they know where to look and how to set things up. So, is it then the fault of the paying customer if games flop? Of course not. Piracy is an existing problem. It's also a problem where the publishers share a big part of the responsibility by making their games unfriendly to the ones interested in buying them. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens next, does it?  It's also true that the majority of the most pirated games are also triple-A titles that already rake in millions of sales. On the other hand, indy games like the aforementioned sins of a solar empire where also pirated like crazy because of a total lack of copy protection, but they also sold like crazy and the developers turned a good profit. It's very simple how they did it...they didn't have to pay a horde of lawyers, marketing executives and advertisement consultants because they sold their game themselves. In that sense, indy companies can afford to not be greedy and maybe even turn a blind eye to the piracy problem, because they only have their own pockets to line. In another case Amanita Design, a small studio making adventure games in Flash, launched a so-called pirate redemption sale (actually anyone could take advantage of the sale) for a week, offering Machinarium at a price of $5 and that game is already cheap to begin with, with $15-$20 for the collector's edition. That didn't happen overnight though, it happened quite a few months after the game was released, with sales having tappered off and the launch of the sale did a few very important things for them: gave them "cool guys" points in the eyes of the gaming community, put them back in the spotlight and enticed even more people to buy the game, people that despite the already cheap price might have been put off initially, but will drop their cash when they realize they can get an award winning game for small change. A guy from EA or UBI however, even if they ever did such clever marketing which they don't, will not be glad about getting a chance to effectively re-launch one of their games. They'll be too busy crying over the fact that those 200000 extra sales were made at $5 a piece instead of at $15 a piece and come up with a statistic claiming a 75% loss of profit, totally disregarding the fact that these sales wouldn't have happened at all with a higher price. The differences in how different groups within the industry view the situation is not only obvious, but paramount to their success and failure as well So what is the fuss all about then? The second hand market. That's the real reason the big names want to tie everything to accounts. Not one of these accounts is transferrable, at least not without a fee and some not at all. If i buy a car i can resell it, if i buy a DRM-ed game i most probably can't. Yes, i know it's getting old with the car analogies, but let's consider the flip-side too. Suppose the companies are right and buying a game doesn't give you ownership of the items involved (physical or immaterial), but only a license of use. In that sense if i buy a game and my original DVD is damaged, my license is still valid. I didn't buy a DVD, i bought the rights to use the game and how that happens is up to the publisher, as long as my PC is within the specs. So, shouldn't the company send me a replacement DVD since my license still stands? Do you know any cases of this actually happening though? If suddenly there was a strange atmospheric condition that corroded media discs and people starter asking for replacements because their license still stands, you can bet that all of the big publishing companies would abandon their license rhetoric overnight 
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#10
09-02-2010, 03:49 AM
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A good summary.
I would add just one thing. A good game from a players point of view is not necessarily a good game from the marketing/profitability perspective. Two Classic examples of this from a non-computer gaming are the Games Workshop Warhammer Franchise and the Wizards/Hasbro D&D games. In both these cases the original games had big strong loyal followings because the games were excellent from a players perspective. However this big strong loyal following was not be translating into profits as those players already had all the books/miniatures/random stuff they needed to play indefinitely. In both cases the games have been changed to appeal to the quick easy cash and carry "fad" market. The central long term player base is far weaker but the continual turnover of new players buying books and miniatures, playing for 6 months getting bored and tossing the books in a cupboard ensures huge ongoing profits. The significant point is that unlike Warhammer where doting mums and dads actually do waste silly money on miniatures with the logic that "its better than Johnny doing drugs" the fad PC game market simply will play something else if they cant get it for free.
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