BSM Rank and Class System

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Just make sure that there's a screen by which the player can then type a personalized name to his/her newly selected avatar. See, another example of empowering the player, and giving him/her another opportunity to express their own creative capabilities.

you can change the name of the avatar in the character creation screen where you spend the 30 point on skills.

And you're totally right, there should be 2 sets of points, one for parameters and one for skills. It means a lot of re-writing of the code, but I think it's worth it. I regret not thinking about this when I first wroth those 1500 lines

I think giving all the characters the same amount of skill points distributed among the attributes, but with small differences based on size and sex is the way to go. It seems we're in agreement there and I'll start editing the preset.ini files once I'm finished with changing the points system.

I could create the +/- system you mentioned, and have that available only tat the game start. But we need a minimum number for both skills and parameter, or just having a max on how many points a par/ski can be lowered.

The bug you encounter is a prime example of my laziness, I just stopped the level up process at 23 and then forgot the "else" thingy in the code. I already fixed that yesterday and there's now 63 levels and the "else" issue has been fixed.

EDIT: Due to th engine limit of the dialog tree, it causes a CTD when it gets too long, I had some problems implementing the new start distribution system. But with some coding jujitsu and mental wrestling I found a solution

I dint put a cap on anything, so the player can redistribute the Parameter values freely. I think we can give all the characters, both male and female, the exact settings in the parameters as long as they all have the exact total amount. Maybe setting all the parameters to 70 and let the player create the character as wanted. Talk about freedom, eh. But it could also lead to a lot of clicking at the start of the game, so I'll let the testers try the new system and offer changes if it gets too much of a click-fest.

Here's what I'm thinking:
HP 90
EN 90
EYE 70
HRN 70
STR 70
STM 70
DXT 70
AGT 70
REA 70
INT 70

EXP 30

SHT 30
SNP 30
GFT 30
HWP 30
THR 30
HtH 30
CAM 30
SAP 30
MED 30
STH 30

Total: 1070

I've also increased the number of levels, there's now 100 levels which means if the player kills around 10000 enemies he'll reach that. But that sounds unlikely, but you never know, some people like killing

I'll upload the next version in an hour or so, still need to edit the Preset.inis and do a quick test session.

Oh, and I forgot to say - Happy Independence Day to you Kyle, and all the other Americans that might read this.

EDIT 2:

Class System v3 beta

[Kyle]

BUGS
I received my first 7.62 Blue Screen of Death, with an Error Report that read, “…ati 2cqag.dll… Page_fault_in_nonpaged_area…”

When leveling up, the word “Strength” is misspelled.


SUGGESTIONS
Typically, when creates a character, the Parameters are selected and set based on the class that one has selected. With Beta v.3, one cannot adjust the Parameters, and one has to set the skills before one has even selected a class.

Character-creation typically looks like this (that is, if it’s not based on a randomized system, such as Dungeons & Dragons):
(I.) Select class after being informed of what the advantages/disadvantages are, then…
(II.) Set one’s attributes, and finally…
(III.) Set one’s skills.

If the above structure can’t be done, then I advise to supply an informative statement on the Avatar-Selection screen, something along the lines of, “…The classes and their Skill-Sets are… On this screen one may only adjust the starting Skills, but once in-game, one will need to access the Kill Book through the Inventory screen, and from there select one’s class and then be able to adjust Parameters…” This informative statement will help Players avoid undue frustration because they’ll know what to expect as part of the modified process.


I’d also supply where it can be readily seen at least a brief summation of what each Parameter affects, and what each Skill does do/not do. This will help players spend their points with more confidence.

When it comes to displaying current Parameter/Skill levels, I’d supply the level they’re at immediately next to the listed attribute, but before any written descriptions of what it does. For example…
Reaction [78] Influences how quickly one can respond to shock.
Strength [103] Specifies how much can be carried & its impact on speed.


I’m tired, so I can’t recall for sure if this is being done in the current build; if a Parameter is reduced then those points are made available for only Parameters, and are not shared in any degree with the number of points that are available for Skills. The same is also true vice versa.



QUESTIONS
How does Intellect impact the game now that the new system’s in place? I know before that it had a sizeable impact on gaining experience points, but now what does it do/not do?

In the first town, the Police Station has at least one window that does not behave as if it’s transparent. If you’re looking at the front of the Police Station, it’s the window to the left of the double-door entrance. The enemy can see in, but my avatar cannot see anything other than the exterior environment. Am I the only one experiencing this, or…?



EQUIPMENT
Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?

The reason why I ask is that head cover could definitely play a role in how a player is able to perceive the environment. None of the above would offer any protection towards rounds or shrapnel, but…

Boonie Hat: +5 camouflage (breaks up the shape of the head), +5 seeing (due to offering steady shade)
Kevlar-type Helmet: +2 seeing (the small brim offers some unsteady shade), -15 hearing (noisy and blocks the proper reception of sounds), and +whatever it is for protection against rounds/shrapnel.
Etc.

Also, I noticed in the BSM thread that observations have been made regarding how weapons’ attributes are currently set. If the postings are accurate, then it would be nice to address these inconsistencies. It might not be as much of a “headache” as it sounds, especially if awesome mods such as BloodyMoney for Brigade E5 are consulted. BloodyMoney used the terrific work that was done for the superb Immortal Badass mod, and I know that throughout IB’s development there was a lot of attention spent on trying to get the weapons’ attributes consistent and based on real life values. Now the reason why I bring up BloodyMoney first is that the creator of Immortal Badass highly lauded it.

Alright, have to hit the rack.

Thanks for the hard work. The advances you’ve made from v.2 to v.3 are noticeable and appreciated! I'm happy with the huge pool of money you gave us up front, so that we can hire mercs as we deem so we can test the system harder and more thoroughly. Smart.

Kyle
July 6, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Typically, when creates a character, the Parameters are selected and set based on the class that one has selected. With Beta v.3, one cannot adjust the Parameters, and one has to set the skills before one has even selected a class.

Character-creation typically looks like this (that is, if it’s not based on a randomized system, such as Dungeons & Dragons):
(I.) Select class after being informed of what the advantages/disadvantages are, then…
(II.) Set one’s attributes, and finally…
(III.) Set one’s skills.

f the above structure can’t be done, then I advise to supply an informative statement on the Avatar-Selection screen, something along the lines of, “…The classes and their Skill-Sets are… On this screen one may only adjust the starting Skills, but once in-game, one will need to access the Kill Book through the Inventory screen, and from there select one’s class and then be able to adjust Parameters…” This informative statement will help Players avoid undue frustration because they’ll know what to expect as part of the modified process.

Due to engine limitations I can't mod anything before a new game is actually started, and the GUI is hard coded and can't be changed, at least for now. The Parameters distribution screen should load on startup, if it doesn't there might be a problem with your installation. Maybe I should write a better description in that screen, but I like to think that the players are smart people and will figure out how this works pretty fast. And if anyone makes a mistake in the character creation screen, starting a new game to correct it isn't that hard to do.

You were the one asking for more freedom when setting the skills and parameters, are you regretting that already You CAN re-distribute the parameters at the game start, you'll get the "Decrease" option once you've chosen a class. Once you actually decreased a parameter you'll have some points to spend and you'll get the "Increase" dialog option as well. And distributing Skill point s already done in the character creation screen, no need to make one similar to the Parameter start system.

Originally Posted by Kyle

I’d also supply where it can be readily seen at least a brief summation of what each Parameter affects, and what each Skill does do/not do. This will help players spend their points with more confidence.

Since I don't know how all the parameters and skills actually affect the gameplay, I only suspect, writing this might make me a liar And I think that if the player has to figure that out for himself, playing this game many times might actually be more fun. But with your help we could create a FAQ so that the player can check what the attributes does and how this new system works. Since I'm the one behind the code, I already know too much and you'll be better at figuring out what questions a new player might have about it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

When it comes to displaying current Parameter/Skill levels, I’d supply the level they’re at immediately next to the listed attribute, but before any written descriptions of what it does. For example…
Reaction [78] Influences how quickly one can respond to shock.
Strength [103] Specifies how much can be carried & its impact on speed.

Great idea, and I've already added the number in the dialog screen for all the attributes. The description is not necessary, or at least I think it's not.

Originally Posted by Kyle

I’m tired, so I can’t recall for sure if this is being done in the current build; if a Parameter is reduced then those points are made available for only Parameters, and are not shared in any degree with the number of points that are available for Skills. The same is also true vice versa.

Yeppers, that's how it works. But you only get one chance to decrease any parameters and that has to do with creating a character, skills are never decreased since they are already very low(30) and this could cause some serious balancing issues, especially at the beginning af the game.

Originally Posted by Kyle

How does Intellect impact the game now that the new system’s in place? I know before that it had a sizeable impact on gaining experience points, but now what does it do/not do?

I think I've mentioned this before, I haven't changed or disabled the old system. One can still train the attributes as before, but with this system one can increase some values that were hard or impossible to train before. The main goal of the BSM is to increase the fun, to me that means more time fighting and less time doing all the other "boring" stuff, like running around on the map with a full backpack

Originally Posted by Kyle

In the first town, the Police Station has at least one window that does not behave as if it’s transparent. If you’re looking at the front of the Police Station, it’s the window to the left of the double-door entrance. The enemy can see in, but my avatar cannot see any
thing other than the exterior environment. Am I the only one experiencing this, or…?

Never noticed that myself, but I suspect it has to do with the map meshes and what kind of material the devs used when they made it. And no, nothing can be done about it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?

I guess you'd have to ask the devs, oh wait, you can't Deadhead and the HLA guys made some berets and new headgear, and from what he told me it's a process that requires a lot of time and skill. Altering all the merc head models, editing their AZP archives and a whole lot more. Since I'm only one guy with limited time and no skill in creating/altering 3d objects, I haven't bothered with it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Also, I noticed in the BSM thread that observations have been made regarding how weapons’ attributes are currently set. If the postings are accurate, then it would be nice to address these inconsistencies. It might not be as much of a “headache” as it sounds, especially if awesome mods such as BloodyMoney for Brigade E5 are consulted. BloodyMoney used the terrific work that was done for the superb Immortal Badass mod, and I know that throughout IB’s development there was a lot of attention spent on trying to get the weapons’ attributes consistent and based on real life values. Now the reason why I bring up BloodyMoney first is that the creator of Immortal Badass highly lauded it.

Have you tried the alternative WEAPONINFO_ALT file? Just backup the old WEAPONINFO file, rename the WEAPONINFO_ALT to WEAPONINFO and start a new game. That file uses the work of Incapacitator and is more "realistic" than the vanilla one. But it also make the game so much harder...

I've incorporated both Outsourced mod and Merc Consultant into the BSM source and I've added the option to disable the new class system in the former. To make it fair for those who play with the class system disabled I've increased the preset parameters with an additional 50 points. I'll upload the next version later tonight, now I need a nap, crap and eat

[R@S]

Here's the latest version:

Class System v4 beta

I had another idea regarding the whole class system, and it's from JA2. What if we made the class given based on a set of questions, and depending on those questions the player will given a class. Then we could also add perks, or traits if you like, also based on the answers of those question. We would only have to have a few perks available, and the player will only get one. If there was a way to lock the activation of said perks to the keybord, it would make the use of them mush easier. I know there's a way to check for keyboard input, but afaik it only works in the dialog screen. But if not, then it would be worth pursuing.

[safoolfool]

Hey, I figured I'd chime in on this. Firstly, I think the classes are a great idea, as is leveling up in general.
That said, I personally would avoid a test. Almost all of the time when I start a game I have a plan for what I want to do, and so the test is a mere formality, and I chose the answers explicitly to get the class I want. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that's how most people go about it. In that case, a test seems like a waste of your effortm it isn't going to show people what they want, they'll just know what they want so the test is pointless and a waste of time.

This was especially true in BE5, where the questions ended up clear cut and pointless. How would you get into your house if you locked yourself out? a) break the door with my macho strength b) sneak in the back c) use my dexterity to pick the lock d) wait until a locksmith comes and spend time practicing first aid. How would you impress a girl? a) win an arm wrestling competition b) sneakily cop a feel c) show her my dexterity by dancing d) win a surgery competition.

Basically, it seems to me that letting the player chose everything is easier for both them and you. A game like morrowind worked it into the game in an immersive way: the police steward was asking you questions, like what did you do before being arrested (I was a fighter/thief/mage) when were you born (under the sign of the warrior/rogue/wizard) and could you sign your name (sure, my name is R@S McModder). The tests weren't helpful, but they made you fit in. In 7.62 you don't really need character immersion.

[R@S]

Yeah, I agree with you, the more straight forward it is, the better. My main thought was of course to add perks, but as Kyle said before, one has to go all in or not go at all. The proposed way was a compromise, and a bad one at that. But since I finally learned how to externalize these things, I could have a turn on/off function in the ini file.

[Kyle]

You were the one asking for more freedom when setting the skills and parameters, are you regretting that already You CAN re-distribute the parameters at the game start, you'll get the "Decrease" option once you've chosen a class. Once you actually decreased a parameter you'll have some points to spend and you'll get the "Increase" dialog option as well. And distributing Skill point s already done in the character creation screen, no need to make one similar to the Parameter start system.

Trust me, I'm more than happy that (thus far) you're pursuing my admonitions to give the Player as much freedom as possible when fashioning their characters. My main concern is causing too much confusion, and I'm just trying to conceptualize the easiest path to getting there. Having some attributes adjustable on one screen and then another without being able to see what classes are available, nor see what the consequences of choosing a class may bring, well, to me that's confusing. And confusion generates frustration, and the one thing that I would love to see happen is people go, "Wow! What an awesome and easy to use mod! Let me tell my buddies..."

Alright, so as I earlier presumed, engine limitations are handicapping the class selection and generation system. So, what if we deliberately "lock down" the avatar selection process like this (if this is doable)...

Pick your avatar's appearance. Change the avatar's name if it's so desired, and then make it so NONE of the Parameters and Skills can be changed on THAT screen. In fact, I'd set ALL of the numbers for Parameters and Skills to 0 so that there's no mistaking that adjusting these attributes on this screen is impossible. Have a statement that says something like, "After selecting your avatar's appearance and name, proceed in-game to select its class, and then establish its Parameters and Skills by opening up the Inventory screen, and right-clicking on the Kill Book."

Now, if something like that can be established, there's no confusion.

Then, when the Kill Book is right-clicked on, I'd have an option that says, "Generate Characteristics."

The first set of menu options could be entitled, "Select Class." The classes would have their Parameters/Skill-sets displayed, and I'd also supply an option whereby the Player could look up the definition as to what those Parameters/Skills effect. I feel that this is important, because I was quite shocked to read that Energy determines how long a character can hold his/her weapon in a readied position. I wouldn't have been able to just deduce that on my own. Nor would I have been able to figure out that Reaction has to do with responding/recovering from being shocked. Initially, I thought that it had something to do with how quickly one can direct one's weapon towards a different target. Guessing at what does what increases confusion and thus frustration. I prefer to be proactive on this matter design-wise, and avoid negativity whenever possible.

After the class is selected, the new menu option could be entitled "Set Parameters." And again, I'd supply an option to see what the Parameters/Skills impact.

And then the last menu option would be made available, "Set Skills," and also supply a definitions option.

Since I don't know how all the parameters and skills actually affect the gameplay, I only suspect, writing this might make me a liar And I think that if the player has to figure that out for himself, playing this game many times might actually be more fun. But with your help we could create a FAQ so that the player can check what the attributes does and how this new system works. Since I'm the one behind the code, I already know too much and you'll be better at figuring out what questions a new player might have about it.

I've spent the last 12 years of my life being a teacher, so it's innate in me to avoid confusion whenever possible. So I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record on these kinds of design issues! I certainly understand your concern with not knowing "for sure" what every Parameter/Skill does/doesn't do, but even if we give the "textbook definition" of what they are in-game, along with a Disclaimer in the F.A.Q., I still feel that this would provide a more satisfying experience to the players. I'm also basing my conviction on this because of my decades' worth of role playing experience, and without exception, EVERY friend who ever played a random-centered game such as D&D first, immediately loved the crystal clear immediacy and control of GURPS. Sure, through no fault of our own, we might not be able to give a "crystal clear" view of all that there is to know, but if we give them a "frosted glass" access, I'm confident that they'll be happier with it and the knowledge that there's a degree of mystery to it will most likely bring them back for more replays.

And I'd be happy to write a F.A.Q. for the good of the mod and the community.

I think I've mentioned this before, I haven't changed or disabled the old system. One can still train the attributes as before, but with this system one can increase some values that were hard or impossible to train before. The main goal of the BSM is to increase the fun, to me that means more time fighting and less time doing all the other "boring" stuff, like running around on the map with a full backpack

I must have overlooked the fact that the old system is still intact. I think that this design decision of yours is even more brilliant than before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?
I guess you'd have to ask the devs, oh wait, you can't Deadhead and the HLA guys made some berets and new headgear, and from what he told me it's a process that requires a lot of time and skill. Altering all the merc head models, editing their AZP archives and a whole lot more. Since I'm only one guy with limited time and no skill in creating/altering 3d objects, I haven't bothered with it.

Wow. Reading about all of the horror getting something like cloth-hats in sure makes it clear that such feats should be left at the very bottom of the To Do list. What irritates me is when games are marketed with features that aren't supplied in-game. I mean, the very cover of the game's package shows a boonie hat wearer. It's trivial in the Grand Scheme of things, but nevertheless, it still gets under my skin a bit.

Have you tried the alternative WEAPONINFO_ALT file? Just backup the old WEAPONINFO file, rename the WEAPONINFO_ALT to WEAPONINFO and start a new game. That file uses the work of Incapacitator and is more "realistic" than the vanilla one. But it also make the game so much harder...

Ahh, that's VERY GOOD to know! That's definitely a point that should be detailed in a F.A.Q. I've already backed up/overwritten the original file with the alternative one.

We would only have to have a few perks available, and the player will only get one. If there was a way to lock the activation of said perks to the keybord, it would make the use of them mush easier. I know there's a way to check for keyboard input, but afaik it only works in the dialog screen.

The idea of this is intriguing to me. Perhaps the best way to go about this is to supply in the character creation process one last menu option that displays itself after the Skills have been set, something that could be entitled "Perk Selection." I'd offer at least a few choices per class type (some of these could be shared between classes), if not all of them, and the Player could select only one. I'd also supply an option that could be entitled, "None selected," so that if a Player wants to skip something that seems a little too fantastical they can avoid it altogether. Kind of like being able to skip over the science fiction aspect of Jagged Alliance 2. I really applaud the game designers' decision to make this an option for the players.

What makes this all the more tempting to me is that it would sure entice players to play through the game again with a different Perk in effect. Perhaps a new Perk selection could be earned at Level 7, then another at Level 14, and then another at 28, and so on with the doubling. A cap could be put on the maximum number that's attainable, perhaps 3? These Perks, if they're not properly balanced with negatives, could get enormously powerful in combination within a short matter of time. Perhaps it's best to just limit it to one choice, as the consequences for it game-balance wise would certainly be more manageable. For that matter, each of these Perks could scale-upwards at level 7/14/28... Hmm...much to think about!

I've incorporated both Outsourced mod and Merc Consultant into the BSM source and I've added the option to disable the new class system in the former. To make it fair for those who play with the class system disabled I've increased the preset parameters with an additional 50 points. I'll upload the next version later tonight, now I need a nap, crap and eat

Sounds great. I hope you had a great poop after your nap. Personally, I'd do the poopin' first as it'll ensure a more restful rest.

Alright, time to test Beta v.4!