Daidalos Team's Room -QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS ONLY on IL2 Authorized Addons

[AndyJWest]

Yes, what csThor said. Even assuming you could get your head out of the 109 cockpit sliding panel, would you want to try it? Hit a minor bump, and you'd decapitate yourself, or at best end up with severe bruises. It was there for ventilation, or possibly to enable you to get some forward view with an oiled-up windscreen.

Is it that important though? I'd rather fly an air combat simulator than a taxiing simulator...

[Furio]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Is it that important though? I'd rather fly an air combat simulator than a taxiing simulator...

Me too. But here is one of the instances in which to have the choice would be great. Taxing is actually part of flying, especially with taildraggers, and it’s simply impossible to taxi realistically with your head blocked in a centerline view.

Planes with sliding canopy were almost invariably taxied with the canopy open, in some case (F4U, for example) with the seat raised. Most Russian pilots flew routinely with canopy open (or removed), so this is an issue that deserves some consideration, in my opinion.

However, we should be aware that we talk of very limited head movements. Once pilot is strapped in, often with the aid of ground personnel, his shoulders are effectively blocked, and all he can move is his neck. Take a look from outside to an I16 pilot and you’ll see easily what I mean.

I even doubt that a full six DOF could be considered realistic. How much you can really lean forward or backward? And how much up and down? So, perhaps a different solution can be explored, that of having four fixed head position: default, slightly leaned forward, slightly leaned left or right. Enough to peer around cockpit frame without messing up with present cockpits limitations.

[deadmeat313]

Originally Posted by Furio

Me too. But here is one of the instances in which to have the choice would be great. Taxing is actually part of flying, especially with taildraggers, and it’s simply impossible to taxi realistically with your head blocked in a centerline view.

Planes with sliding canopy were almost invariably taxied with the canopy open, in some case (F4U, for example) with the seat raised. Most Russian pilots flew routinely with canopy open (or removed), so this is an issue that deserves some consideration, in my opinion.

However, we should be aware that we talk of very limited head movements. Once pilot is strapped in, often with the aid of ground personnel, his shoulders are effectively blocked, and all he can move is his neck. Take a look from outside to an I16 pilot and you’ll see easily what I mean.

I even doubt that a full six DOF could be considered realistic. How much you can really lean forward or backward? And how much up and down? So, perhaps a different solution can be explored, that of having four fixed head position: default, slightly leaned forward, slightly leaned left or right. Enough to peer around cockpit frame without messing up with present cockpits limitations.

I could be wrong here - in which case flame away.

I thought that a lot of pilots in WWII would only strap themselves across the lap if they were expecting action on the sortie? ie they left the shoulder straps of their harness undone. This was so they could sit forward more easily if they wanted to look out of the plane to the side or rear.

I think Paul Richey described doing that in his book "Fighter Pilot" about his experiences flying Hurricanes in 1940. Some modern photos of WWII birds show the pilot hunched forward in the cockpit. I'll try to find one if anyone thinks its important.

I'm not trying to argue that you should be able to stick you head out of the side window, but that 6DOF is quite reasonable within the cockpit.

S!

[Tempest123]

Theres no way a 109 pilot is gonna stick his head out the sliding window for taxiing, its in the wrong place. I just thought it would be a neat "feature" to have the panel slide back, or to be able to open the canopy when stopped. I have seen an airshow 109E taxi with the canopy open, so i'm sure its doable, but yeah having it shut on your head is probably why it was prohibited.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by deadmeat313

I could be wrong here - in which case flame away.

I thought that a lot of pilots in WWII would only strap themselves across the lap if they were expecting action on the sortie? ie they left the shoulder straps of their harness undone. This was so they could sit forward more easily if they wanted to look out of the plane to the side or rear.

I think Paul Richey described doing that in his book "Fighter Pilot" about his experiences flying Hurricanes in 1940. Some modern photos of WWII birds show the pilot hunched forward in the cockpit. I'll try to find one if anyone thinks its important.

I'm not trying to argue that you should be able to stick you head out of the side window, but that 6DOF is quite reasonable within the cockpit.

S!

Anyone cab be wrong, me included.

I’m not a WWII pilot, but I always wear shoulder harness during take off, and I tighten them up before any aerobatic manoeuvre (or in turbulence, since the last time I bumped my head in the canopy).

Anyway, my main points are two.
First: 6DOF was asked for many times, with answers varying from a “Perhaps someday” to a polite “No”, because of the extensive modifications needed by many cockpits. I believe it’s time to ask for something useful but not so much labour intensive.
Second: I asked the “four positions head” as an option, not as a default solution for everyone. “Option” is a word that I like very much, as it leaves anyone freedom of choice.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

We are thinking about a different kind of 6DoF, which would be more realistic.
Still there are some problems with it.

However, we agree, that a pinpointed head without any ability to lean anywere, is quite unrealistic.

[steppie]

Originally Posted by Furio

Anyone cab be wrong, me included.

I’m not a WWII pilot, but I always wear shoulder harness during take off, and I tighten them up before any aerobatic manoeuvre (or in turbulence, since the last time I bumped my head in the canopy).

Anyway, my main points are two.
First: 6DOF was asked for many times, with answers varying from a “Perhaps someday” to a polite “No”, because of the extensive modifications needed by many cockpits. I believe it’s time to ask for something useful but not so much labour intensive.
Second: I asked the “four positions head” as an option, not as a default solution for everyone. “Option” is a word that I like very much, as it leaves anyone freedom of choice.

shoulder harness don't stop you from moving from side to side and you be surprise on how much you can move in these copit even when you strapped in.
You still able you lean forward to a point and lean side to and look around in the copit. The reason the wore silk scarfs to stop chafing because the had to look around so much and being able to see the enemy first was a life and death struggle for WW2 pilots . Also being able to move around help when it came to looking around copit frames that would get in the way.

here some inflight copit footage of a 109

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a_TE...layer_embedded

[Furio]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

We are thinking about a different kind of 6DoF, which would be more realistic.
Still there are some problems with it.

However, we agree, that a pinpointed head without any ability to lean anywere, is quite unrealistic.

Thank you for the great new, Caspar!
And thanks to all Team for the great work!

[Furio]

Originally Posted by steppie

shoulder harness don't stop you from moving from side to side and you be surprise on how much you can move in these copit even when you strapped in.
You still able you lean forward to a point and lean side to and look around in the copit. The reason the wore silk scarfs to stop chafing because the had to look around so much and being able to see the enemy first was a life and death struggle for WW2 pilots . Also being able to move around help when it came to looking around copit frames that would get in the way.

here some inflight copit footage of a 109

Steppie: tightened shoulder harness (if they’re not tight they serve nothing) limit any movement, period. If that’s not enough, looking at you very interesting movie, you can easily see that the 109’s cockpit is so narrow that cockpit sides block lateral body movement.
Consider also that operational pilots wore cumbersome flight gear, with heavy jacket, mae west, oxygen tubes and radio cables.

All this said, I believe that 6 DOF should be severely restricted to be realistic. But, in the interest of playability and different opinions, some allowance can be considered as an option. Have I already said that I like the word “option”?

[steppie]

Originally Posted by Furio

Steppie: tightened shoulder harness (if they’re not tight they serve nothing) limit any movement, period. If that’s not enough, looking at you very interesting movie, you can easily see that the 109’s cockpit is so narrow that cockpit sides block lateral body movement.
Consider also that operational pilots wore cumbersome flight gear, with heavy jacket, mae west, oxygen tubes and radio cables.

All this said, I believe that 6 DOF should be severely restricted to be realistic. But, in the interest of playability and different opinions, some allowance can be considered as an option. Have I already said that I like the word “option”?

Well look like you have never had a 6 point harness on and what the shoulder strap are for is to stop you move forward and up, the conforming seat that they don't you in 1944 are what stop you moving side way. As it was the harness don't work that well and that meant there was the needed to have cushioning for the gun site because the pilot would hit them with violent maneuvers and crash landing. Also pilot would often have bruised arms after dog fighters from being bang from side to side in the copit.