Here it is... the Teana Open!

[pavned]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Cyclops' melee abilies are not 'no retaliation'. Push cannot be used against level 5 units, and stun doesn't prevent retal against level 5 units.
However, He can always move away, and shoot, and has 30% physical resistance to help make up that Attack vs Defense. I think this one is knowable, though it depends on how 'terrible' works.

Hmm, although the 'stun' status effect will lower the attack and defense of the tirex when it is used. But Stun also has only one charge.

Didn't knew about the ability of Cyclops vs level 5 units, tought they would work! (Is it in the manual or did you experienced it?)

Well, there's always the movement then throw a rock strategy, but then there's not enough damage dealt by the Cyclops to even start thinking about killing the TRex.

[Zechnophobe]

Empirical information. You'll notice it a lot if you use dragons(they will stun you, and you'll still retaliate). Then if you use Cyclopses in the decently late game, you will also notice you cannot PUSH against level 5's like Demons (very annoying).

[Lord Ludwig]

On to the semifinals:


Black Dragon (1) 3

Green Dragon (4) 1




Archdemon (6) 1

T-Rex (2) 3

In both cases there's room for discussion. The BD has overall better stats than the GD, but the fact that the BD does fire damage while the GD does physical counters some of this. In the former topic where I first launched this idea general consensus seemed to lean towards the green dragon winning through the use of capture target. Things are not so clean cut however. Considering the respective AT/DE ratios (7/6 for the BD, 53/70 for the GD) and resistances (BD resists 20% of GD damage, GD resists 50% of BD damage) it still turns out that the BD does more damage, ranging from 64 to 75 and 112 on a critical against a range of 48-66 and a crit of 99 for the GD. Special attacks do respectively 78 (capture target), 30-42 (mana leech) and 64-81 (rain of fire). So if both sides attack and use their SA, countign average dmg and no crits, it should go like this:

round 1 BD can't use Rof cause GD on border of map) attacks for 70, gets countered for 57; GD uses CT for 78

Health: BD 865 GD 730

round 2 BD uses RoF for 73, GD uses ML for 36

Health: BD 829 GD 657

round 3 BD attacks for 70 counter 57, GD attacks for 57 counter 70

Health: BD 715 GD 517

round 4 BD attacks for 70 counter 57, GD uses CT 78

Health: BD 580 GD 447

round 5 BD uses RoF 73, GD attacks 57 counter 70

Health BD 523 GD 304

round 6 BD attacks 70 counter 57, GD uses ML 36

Health BD 430 GD 234

round 7 BD attacks 70 counter 57, GD uses CT 78

Health BD 295 GD 164

round 8 BD uses RoF 73, GD attacks 57 counter 70

Health BD 238 GD 21

round 9 BD attacks and kills GD

Now there are 3 occasions on which the GD attacks normally, taking more damage than it dishes out. Would he do better defending? I ignore exactly how many defense points he gains and if they extend to the next round. If they do then average damage from the BD could be lower, say 60 on a normal attack, 62 with RoF. In this case how would their healths be at round 8? BD would have 171 more, GD 210 more from avoided counters, 20 less from reduced dmg. So lets say:

round 8 Health BD 409 GD 251

round 9 BD attacks 60 counter 57 GD defends

Health BD 352 GD 191

round 10 BD attacks 60 counter 57 GD uses CT 78

Health BD 217 GD 131

round 11 BD uses RoF 73 GS uses ML 36

Health BD 181 GD 58

round 12 BD attacks and kills GD

So it seems defending gets the GD 3 more rounds of life, but that's it.

Now the above does not take in account several things:

1) as I said maybe the GD gains more than +10 for defending, but even +20 would not be enough to make a difference, I think

2) can GD maybe use the grid so as to make RoF unusable?

3) Is the BD actually vulnerable to ML?

4) All above does not consider criticals. Since the BD attacks normally 5 times in case 1 (against 3) and 7 (against 0) in case 2 before delivering the coupe de grace, and since the BD has 17 % critical, it seems likely especially in case 2 he WILL deliver a hefty 112 critical damage at some point speeding the GD demise up. Actually not getting a critical at 17% in 7 attempts has only about a 26,8 % chance of happening.

So I think, contrary to what was said before, that the BD - at least up to the final - keeps true to his role of ranking number one.

Edit: it actually seems I miscounted the number of times the GD attacks normally in scenario 1, which is 4 instead of 3. The result of this however is solely that the GD in scenario 2 goes down on round 13 instead of 12.

[pavned]

With the early elimination of the Ancient ent and the Bone Dragon, this tournament has become a replica of the Federer's tennis-era before Nadal join the ATP. We already know who's gonna win!

The Archdemon!

Too bad cause for me the Archdemon is like Jim Courrier, great tennis player, I just don't like the guy!

[Lord Ludwig]

Originally Posted by pavned

With the early elimination of the Ancient ent and the Bone Dragon, this tournament has become a replica of the Federer's tennis-era before Nadal join the ATP. We already know who's gonna win!

The Archdemon!

Too bad cause for me the Archdemon is like Jim Courrier, great tennis player, I just don't like the guy!

Sorry Pavned, I was so persuaded that the Archdemon (which I like a lot actually, I consider him more a sort of McEnroe) was going to win that I mistyped the result in my first entry.

[Lord Ludwig]

Originally Posted by pavned

With the early elimination of the Ancient ent and the Bone Dragon, this tournament has become a replica of the Federer's tennis-era before Nadal join the ATP. We already know who's gonna win!

The Archdemon!

Ah, and actually it seems - however incomplete and difficult the calculations - that through "halve" the AD would actually beat the ancient ent, the bone dragon and the cyclops. So, aside from the troll by night, it came as quite a surprise when my calculations showed he did not come out a winner against the t-rex. Maybe - but I did not yet make any calculations - also the giant would have stood a fair chance against the archdemon. Immunity to halve sways the balance quite a bit.

[Metathron]

The giant is immune to halve?

Anyway, it's looking more and more (to me at least) that the archdemons are overpowered this time around taking into consideration their characteristics relative to the amount of leadership/gold they require.

[Lord Ludwig]

Originally Posted by Metathron

The giant is immune to halve?

Anyway, it's looking more and more (to me at least) that the archdemons are overpowered this time around taking into consideration their characteristics relative to the amount of leadership/gold they require.

Halve only works on stacks with lower leadership. Since in this tournament every units competes on its own, the 5 units with higher or equal leadership than the archdemon (the 3 dragons, the t-rex, the giant) become immune.

I don't think an archdemon is overpowered. Actually I think, to keep close to how a true archdemon should be, he should also get the summoning ability of the demon. It seems more appropriate to me that an archdemon calls in lesser demons.

[Lord Ludwig]

Now for the archdemon - T-rex analysis.

Some big unsettled issues here: does terrify work on the archdemon? I think not. Does tyrant work? I guess it does. Does halve work on the health of a single opponent? Someone claimed it does, I did not check it out. But leadership of the T is higher, so it does not really matter. Does Primal fear work on the AD? He has lower leadership, so it should, but I suppose he shakes off the loss of AP.

So let's see... AT/DE ratio for the AD is 6/5. AT/DE for the T is 65/66 but if tyrant work it becomes 65/46. Physical resistance is 15& for the T, 20% for the AD. An ordinary attack would thus score a damage range of 89-100 for the AD with a crit of 150, 90-135 crit 202 for the T. Averages of 95 and 113 respectively. Plus the T can do a free average of 25 points with no retaliation every 3 rounds starting at 1 through PF. This also means the AD, which is faster, can't keep distance infinitely. Since attacking does not seem worthwhile for the AD he can defend to increase his defense, but does he gain enough points that way? And are the bonus points still subjected to tyrant effect?

All in all - and this comes as a big surprise to me - it seems the Archdemon, which in spite of his nr. 6 on the entry list I considered the big favorite, is going to lose. He would have had an easy time against the Black Dragon, but it seems he is not equipped to eliminate the T-rex.