i 153 in real

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

The I-153 couldn't have been totally obstelete in WW2 as the Fins used them against the Soviets with some success.

It should be noted that the I-153 could be out-turned by the Finnish B-239 Buffalo (or "Sky Pearl" as the Fins called it) easily and could be matched in turns by the Fokker D-21. Voth of these were monoplanes.

The D-21 was 3 MPH slower than the I-153 at 285 MPH and made up the bulk of the Finnish fighter force.

The I-153 still holds the airspeed record for a bi-plane at 288 MPH to this day.

However, the later I-153's 1,000 HP was well short of the 1,200 HP of the Finnish B-239 and P-36 fighters it faced. And definately well short of the power outputs of Luftwaffe fighters and bombers.

Standard I-153 engine was a licence built copy of the US Wright Whirlwind and made 950 HP

The Finnish licence built Fokker D-21 made 836 HP with the Centaurus engine and only 750 HP with the later Wasp Junior engine.

The I-153 was close to obstelete when it appeared in 1938 and it was obselete by 1941.

The I-153, like it's I-16 counterpart used the R-1820 Wright Cyclone (Soviet designated M62); not the Wright Whirlwind. The Brewster Buffalo, also used the Wright Cyclone in the early models, which were the same models as what the Finn's used as their "Buffalos". Some changes were made, but that's what they were sent. So I don't see how the Finnish Buffalo's could out maneuver the I-153 biplane with the same engine?

The Fokker planes, I'm not all that familiar with, so I can't say about that. But the I-153 Chaika used the Wright R-1820 Cyclone, not the Whirlwind.

Also, quick little side note. I-16s were used all the way till 1945, in limited numbers. And also, the Russian/Finn "Winter War" was nothing but two nations with already obsolete planes fighting one another. That is, until Yaks came along.

[Panzergranate]

There is camera footage of a Finnish Buffalo glued to the tail of an I-153 during the Continuation War.

During RAF evaluation, it was noted that the B-339 Buffalo could esily out turn the Gloster Gladiator.

To quote one US Navy Ace, "Pug" Anderson, "The Buffalo could turn a circle inside a phone booth".

The original B-139 flew with a 950 HP engine in 1938.

The B-239 and B-339 versions used 1,100 and later 1,200 HP engines.

RAF Buffaloes flew with second hand Whirlwind engines sourced from US airline companies, reconditioned (badly) by Brewster and then fitted to the fighters. The engines were originally 850 HP and uprated to 1,100 HP by boring them out. Unfortunately the oil pumps were for 850 HP engines and the BUffalo earnt its notoriety not from combat losses but through sudden engine failures in on patrol or in combat.

IL-2 Forgotten Battles faithfully re-creates all the sudden oil pressure and power loss hastle that real RAF, Commonwealth and Dutch pilots faced.

The Directors of Brewster went to jail over this, when their profiteering was discovered.

The Buffalo was the only Allied fighter that could out turn a Zero or Oscar.

Note that the Fins paid in gold and received brand new engines with their B-239 versions.

I've flown B-239s against I-153s in IL-2 FB and it isn't a problem to turn inside them.

The P-36 can't, having pretty much the same mediocre handling of the P-40

The Finnish built Gloster J-8A Gladiator is totally outclassed by the I-153 in acceleration, speed and handling.

The Finnish Fiat G-50 "Frecia" tends to suffer from the usual Italian reliability that plagues their motorcycles even today. I'm yet to fly one long enough to complete a mission without somethng electrical or mechanical screwing up, so I'd predict that it wouldn't fare well against the I-153.

As the D-21 isn't in the game, which is a shame, so only pilot's accounts are available.

It is strange how the Finnish B-239s won most of thier encounters with the Yak and La.

[Soviet Ace]

Several of my sources agree, that the only engines the Finnish Buffalo's used were R-1820-G5's which came in with 950hp, not 1100hp. (Same as the B-139.) None of the Finnish Buffalo's were Whirlwinds, only Cyclones. The Finn's after allying with German, were cut off of American parts, and had to due to capturing Russian M62-63 Radial Engines, which were still American Wright R-1820-34 Cyclone copies. There's no mention of Whirlwinds being used in Finnish Buffalo's that I can find in any of my books, or sources on the internet. No American Buffalo's were powered by Whirlwinds either.

I've flown both in 1946, and they're both fairly equal in acceleration. The only engines the Finnish Buffalo's were equipped with, were R-1820-34 and -40s (like their American counter part). Wright Whirlwinds are only like at their best R-975 9 cylinder at 300-450hp. No 1,100 or 1,200 hp.

[Panzergranate]

I've just checked, yes you're right, Cyclones.

The B-239 was 1,100 HP and some 1,200 HP.

The B-139 had a top speed of 292 MPH, whilst the B-239 and B-339 both made 324 MPH in level flight, the same as a Hurricane.

The B-139 didn't have the full length "Green House" canopy.

It has the best visibility for any fighter I've flown in WW2 sims so far, with the Bf-109 being probally the worst I've experienced.

The Fins regard the Buffalo with the same affection as the British have for the Spitfire. It was regarded as their best fighter even after they received Bf-109s.

The I-153 is a most interesting aircraft to look at, I have a model kit of one, and 3 are still flying today.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

I've just checked, yes you're right, Cyclones.

The B-239 was 1,100 HP and some 1,200 HP.

The B-139 had a top speed of 292 MPH, whilst the B-239 and B-339 both made 324 MPH in level flight, the same as a Hurricane.

The B-139 didn't have the full length "Green House" canopy.

It has the best visibility for any fighter I've flown in WW2 sims so far, with the Bf-109 being probally the worst I've experienced.

The Fins regard the Buffalo with the same affection as the British have for the Spitfire. It was regarded as their best fighter even after they received Bf-109s.

The I-153 is a most interesting aircraft to look at, I have a model kit of one, and 3 are still flying today.

Where are you getting this 1,100 and 1,200 hp from? All I've found, in all my sources is 940-50hp for all three of them (Buffalos). There is no Cyclone, that powered a Brewster Buffalo in WW2 on the Finnish side; that pumped out 1,1-1,200hp. They were all either R-1820-34 which pumped out either 940-50hp, just like the I-15bis, I-153, and I-16 M62-63 Engines.

[Panzergranate]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Where are you getting this 1,100 and 1,200 hp from? All I've found, in all my sources is 940-50hp for all three of them (Buffalos). There is no Cyclone, that powered a Brewster Buffalo in WW2 on the Finnish side; that pumped out 1,1-1,200hp. They were all either R-1820-34 which pumped out either 940-50hp, just like the I-15bis, I-153, and I-16 M62-63 Engines.

From the dedicated website "Annals Of The Brewster Buffalo", which has everything from the RAF evaluation tests in July 1940 to pilot's combat reports through to statistics. Lists of Commonwealth Buffalo aces are also given.

The Buffalo was the most successful fighter of WW2 with a 40:1 kill to loss ratio. The Fins managed a 38:1 kill to loss ratio and the Commonwealth pilots still managed a 2:1 kill to loss ratio.

Against the A6M Zero it enjoyed a 1.39:1 kill to loss ratio.

The Fins manufactured their own engine parts and other spares for the Buffalo and also fitted bigger cylinder bores in line with Wright's own improvements.

Note that the Humu (Reckless) flew with a 950 HP engine taken from an I-153and was found to be underpowered compared to the 1,100 HP Cyclone.

The P-36 A-3 had a 950 HP engine, whilst the ex-French Airforce "Cauldron" P-36 A-4 aircraft, bought from the Nazi's, were powered by 1,100 HP engines.

One unusual feature of a Buffalo, which is never found on any other fighter, is a seperate cargo hold and seperate passenger space under the pilot.

The maximum range of a Buffalo is 1,065 miles without drop tanks or 10.5 hours in the air.

[Panzergranate]

The "F" word came into existance, in the English language in 1872, according to Whitely's Oxford Dictionary of Swearwords and Expletives.

It is a Police charge sheet abreiviation and stands for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" which one would be charged with if caught with one's pants down in a brothel during a police raid.

The offence came onto the statute books in the UK in 1872, as part of the government's on going moral campaign to stamp out prostitutution in the UK.

Until then, patrons of brothels were allowed to go free and uncharged during a police raid.

Prisoners in the cells would ask each other what they were in for and one could be in jail, awaiting trail, for f**king.

Its use in films and plays set before this date are historical language errors, in the same way as the Sherif Of Nottingham, in Kevin Costner's Robin Hood film, telling someone to come and see him at 12:30.

There are many urban myths about the word's origin, this is the true origin.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

From the dedicated website "Annals Of The Brewster Buffalo", which has everything from the RAF evaluation tests in July 1940 to pilot's combat reports through to statistics. Lists of Commonwealth Buffalo aces are also given.

The Buffalo was the most successful fighter of WW2 with a 40:1 kill to loss ratio. The Fins managed a 38:1 kill to loss ratio and the Commonwealth pilots still managed a 2:1 kill to loss ratio.

Against the A6M Zero it enjoyed a 1.39:1 kill to loss ratio.

The Fins manufactured their own engine parts and other spares for the Buffalo and also fitted bigger cylinder bores in line with Wright's own improvements.

Note that the Humu (Reckless) flew with a 950 HP engine taken from an I-153and was found to be underpowered compared to the 1,100 HP Cyclone.

The P-36 A-3 had a 950 HP engine, whilst the ex-French Airforce "Cauldron" P-36 A-4 aircraft, bought from the Nazi's, were powered by 1,100 HP engines.

One unusual feature of a Buffalo, which is never found on any other fighter, is a seperate cargo hold and seperate passenger space under the pilot.

The maximum range of a Buffalo is 1,065 miles without drop tanks or 10.5 hours in the air.

You do realize, that the only Buffalos that were sent to Finland, were F2A-1's which were powered by R-1820-34 Cyclones that were only 940-50hp. The British Commonwealth, Dutch, and the American serviced Buffalo's were later powered by the R-1820-40 that had the 1,1-1,200hp engines because after Finland allied with Germany, America quit sending Buffalo parts to Finland, and they were forced to use the Russian M-62-63s that were the Soviet copies of the R-1820-34 Cyclones. There's no way Finland could have been given later modeled Buffalos because of their alliance with Germany.

So once again, the only Buffalo's Finland owned were the 44 F2A-1s that had the -34 Cyclone which only had 940-50hp. There's no where that I can find in my books, or the internet that say the Finnish manufactured their own Cyclone type engines. They did however take the spare parts off ruined/crashed I-153s and I-16s that would fit with their Cyclone engines.

EDIT: See, you're looking at the -2 and -3 Buffalo's which had the 1,1-1,200hp. Both of which were terrible because Doolittle was pushing for high octane fuel (high leaded gasoline), and also because they were fitted with more junk. That's the reason the Finnish had such a great success with the Buffalo was because they didn't mess around with adding stuff. They more or less just skeletonize'd the damn thing for lighter weight, while the Americans at Midway had heavier Buffalos.