Map Kiting in KB:AP or KB 2

[DGDobrev]

Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

[Zhuangzi]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

I am thinking of an Ironman game for my next game. I'm thinking that it might be too hard on Impossible - due to the money issue. And I don't want to play as a Warrior again. Maybe a Hard Paladin game with absolutely NO reloads? That is, if I lose a battle, tough. No kiting in that game.

[travelingoz]

Hmmm.. Ironman mode sounds like a blast! I'm always up for a challenge! How would you monitor it though? Is there a mod that someone could make so it would be recorded on your final stats screen? How would you know if it was a reload or a save and exit to play again later?

[lauvhk]

Another reason for Map Kiting is that players would like to build their army from a specific race which is not available from the start (and according to the information available certain race is probably not even possible until very late in the game). Well well, same old story for the original KB and KB:TL.

Obviously, it is complicated with stuffs being able to pick up and quests being done in between so that Map Kiting player will be much more powerful, even if they are only allowed to use low level troops from other races. But seeing oneself restricted to the same old troops (mostly human and neutral) in the beginning is frustrating, as if the new races/troops are only created to be your enemy.

[Elwin]

Exactly.

[DGDobrev]

A kiting player will be powerful until lvl 30 or so. In the end, even with all the kiting, the game balances itself, and it's all about proper battle tactics.

So generally, if you can't do a decent fight in the beginning, don't expect thangs to change even if you become the best kiter. It is as simple as that. In my eyes, kiting is a tool to get a nice army at startup. Besides, if you're going for a good score, kiting only hurts it.

[Zhuangzi]

Originally Posted by travelingoz

Hmmm.. Ironman mode sounds like a blast! I'm always up for a challenge! How would you monitor it though? Is there a mod that someone could make so it would be recorded on your final stats screen? How would you know if it was a reload or a save and exit to play again later?

Yes, I suppose we would just have to take the player's word that they hadn't reloaded. A mod would be good though. I think it would be too hard on Impossible as you would run out of money, but maybe Hard would be doable.

[travelingoz]

Thinking more on Ironman; I think a Warrior would be too easy while a Paladin may be difficult on either hard or impossible at the start, once you get Res 3 however, it would become quite easy. Maybe a Mage on hard would be a sufficient challenge. I'd like to see if it could be done on impossible though!

Perhaps a mod could be done so that you can't exit a battle once it's started and the game itself will only save on exit from the adventure map?

[blueshrike]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

Well... I would share my thoughts as a person who knows the game mechanics well, tried it on all difficulties, and even got a no-loss win on impossible with a mage.

You are very respected here and your contributions have been great for everyone including me!

Reloads penalty will hurt everyone seriously. There are people who struggle even on lower difficulties and replay some battles 10 times. Imagine what kind of score they will get in the end.

With due respect, I don't think anyone but the hardcore players (mostly us) who care about comparing scores would be affected - and then only in a positive, skill-based manner - by the proposed score calculation changes. These tweaks might simply provide a more accurate basis for a score regardless of player level, casual or hardcore. Scores could still be compared.

As for kiting guards, that has been discussed. Approach from 90 degrees, if the enemy moves, pause and quicksave. It is both a tool and last resort option. Let us not forget that this is an option to make a diverse game - otherwise every replay will be the same, with the same units, the same way. If you feel like this is improper, simply don't do it

Completely agree, however I think you maybe missed my point here. I wasn't suggesting they take out this functionality at all. As I wrote, there is a design flaw or bug, whether intentional or not and I am certainly not for eliminating the ability to be able to explore new areas before one is ready. In fact, the challenge is already quite sufficient for me and we agree that the game variety is much improved when you have the ability to recruit more creatures and find more spells.

That post also makes me fall back to a statement I made some time ago: people really enjoy finding bugs and game discrepancies rather than analyzing the game, seeing what and when can be done, adapt their game strategy. Why taking away obvious paths of advancement? Why make the game completely based on human units, when you can start with demons, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs or undead? That would seriously hurt the replayability, don't you think?

Again, I'm not suggesting they change the ability to get to new islands before you're ready - so I think you missed my point. Yes, I agree it would hurt replayability. However I didn't make the guards the way they are, and believe that something (a minor tweak) should be done to address this - and that continuously reloading is *not* the best option. It works but if something that many find necessary requires hours of reloading just to kite map guards... there is a better way.

If there is an ironman mode, I will enjoy it, personally. However, the game is fun and fine as it is - it is much more challenging than KBTL, and requires much more strategic thinking.

An ironman mode and the tweaks that were suggested do not have to be mutually exclusive and this would be very welcome. The proposed tweaks *will* make your score lower, but all scores would be more relative to player skill than they are now, but with still a little bit of luck, as always. That's all that's being proposed at this point.

Final note: as a designer myself, the guards are there for a reason, obviously. It's to prevent access by the majority of players to areas where quests and creatures are not yet for their level. My opinion is that these areas, despite difficulty, are actually required in this game for fun and exploration, and therefore I would decrease their core difficulty to allow access to more maps without the need for kiting, in addition to making it actually easier to kite these guards Problem solved IMO. It's not as if there isn't any danger in kiting already.

[DGDobrev]

I respect your opinion and I must admit that you drive some very strong points here and you have most certainly put a lot of thought into that.

I agree about the score balancing. However, being a hardcore player, I cannot dismiss the people who like to play the game casually or make any disparaging remarks concerning them because of that. However, look at the score sheet in the game. If there were no heroes in it, that would be fine. But what if a player who tries really hard to beat the game in normal simply doesn't get in the chart because of the reload penalty? How will that person feel in the end of a game that challenged him a lot - just to find he did it for nothing and can't even show what he/she did?

I would personally feel fine if there is the option to select my army alignment in the first few areas. That will let me try out various army setups and tactics without me having to complete like 33%, 66% or 99% of the game for the same result. That would be a serious loss of real time. Even now, with the present state of affairs, it takes a couple of hours to do the kiting properly.

Well, I am positive that there will always be such arguments because people feel different. I also felt different for a while while I was playing the russian version, but I simply adapted Since nothing has changed in 6 months, keeping in mind we got a few patches for that time, I would not presume that a major change will happen at all.

Let us not forget that the game is pretty much open source and there will be mods to make it harder or easier, then everyone can play it the way he/she feels that it fulfills his/her needs as much as possible.