Question Regarding Grumman Lawsuit

[ElAurens]

I don't think that anyone who has real knowledge is able to discuss this, for legal reasons.

[nearmiss]

If you did know would it make a difference?

I careless about stuff like that. There are thousands of Grumman virtual aircraft all over the web. Methinks that was all just a smoke and mirrors thing to mess with the troops.

[SlipBall]

This information if true, can be searched in a local law library

[Feathered_IV]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

If you did know would it make a difference?

I careless about stuff like that. There are thousands of Grumman virtual aircraft all over the web. Methinks that was all just a smoke and mirrors thing to mess with the troops.

Anyone who loves the game would want to know all there is to know about it's history and development. Personally I'd like to see a tell-all autobiography one day. Yes Oleg, I mean you!

[II./JG1_Klaiber]

Here’s a International Game Developer's Association forum link which shows a 2004 discussion of this very issue:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthrea...threadid=13370

Some interesting highlights:

Originally Posted by DavidEllzey

It seems that Northrop/Grumman company demanded an extremely high fee for the use of the aircraft and ships that their current family of acquired companies (Northrop, Grumman, Republic, Vought, etc...) manufactured during WWII. Given the low budgets that flight-sims work with, especially our Russian colleagues, the developers were unable to pay the fees. Northrop then went to the publisher who to the best of my knowledge paid the fees but deducted all or some of it from the developer's payments...

...I am attempting to locate the Northrop attorney for clarification but that may take a little while, I will update as I find out more.

Originally Posted by DavidEllzey

Here is an update:

I spoke to Mr. Patrick Joyce (310.201.3384) at Northrop this morning. He is the person who handles such things for their company; it might even be his only responsibility. Anyway, he was the person who requested TM fees from the Russian developer and eventually received said fees from the French publisher. He is not an attorney but here is what I could gather from our little chat.

Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or “common law” trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

I brought up the fact that the US government purchased these items and that they would seemingly be public domain. He said no, that both Northrop/Grumman and the US government own rights to the items.

To facilitate a good ongoing investigation, I’ve kept the discussion pretty light and open to continuation. Without alienating this guy (as least not yet) what are the questions I need to ask him?

And here is an HMA (Hobby Manufacturers Association) June 2007 memo which also discusses the issue as well, this time from a hobbyist standpoint:

http://www.hmahobby.org/pdfs/HMA-Mem...-Memo-6.07.pdf

Companies like Revell-Monogram say that military products that have been paid for by the US government through taxpayer money are in public domain and not private property. Meanwhile, the defense industry completely disagrees.

[nearmiss]

What a crock...

The U.S.Government paid for the complete development, engineering and the building of those aircraft. In other words, the U.S. Taxpayer paid for it.

Looks to me like they have way found a way to skin foreigners.

[SlipBall]

I think that various company's developed aircraft on their own dime. Then had to compete against, to win the goverment contract through performance results...having won the contract, then tax payer money would enter the picture for pre orders

[proton45]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I think that various company's developed aircraft on their own dime. Then had to compete against, to win the goverment contract through performance results...having won the contract, then tax payer money would enter the picture for pre orders

I believe the unit price for each aerocraft had the cost of development, tooling & production worked into the final price per aeroplane...

They didn't loose money...they made money.

If the game included an aeroplane that looked very much like a "Wildcat", but was not called a "Wildcat" I believe that Grumman would have a very hard time collecting money...but because the box said "Fly the Wildcat", Grumman can make a pretty strong case that the game manufacturer is making money off of their property.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I think that various company's developed aircraft on their own dime. Then had to compete against, to win the goverment contract through performance results...having won the contract, then tax payer money would enter the picture for pre orders

Nope not the case... during the war the government influenced everything with money, money, money. Winning the war was priority one. The DOD threw money at anything to aid in the war effort.

The world was at war, Britain, Australia, Russia, etc they all needed equipment as well.

The government even paid for Howard Hughes Spruce Goose, start to finish.

I double doubt those American aircraft companies could do anything with an American based game developer. The lawyers would love those lawsuits.

[Les]

I too don't have any real knowledge, and so, funnily enough, am free to discuss it.

There's next to no chance of seeing any more Grumman planes in the official Il-2 series, as Grumman won't let representations of their aircraft be used for free. You'd have to be making a paid add-on for it to be worthwhile and I don't think even Team Daidalos will be doing that.

I'd like to think that by the time the new Storm Of War series gets back to the Pacific, if it ever does, that Oleg will be prepared to pay the Grumman fees and we'll see those planes looking better than ever. But who knows?

As for my interpretation of events, which should not be taken as fact, I thought the whole affair was a petty cash-grab from Grumman. At the time, they were targetting plastic-model-kit makers as well, and at least gave the impression that any hobbyist using images of their planes was also fair game for litigation. I also read or got the impression that Oleg himself thought of Grumman's demands as a form of extortion from the greedy capitalists in the U.S. He was annoyed too because it had been someone elses responsibility to make sure the legal bases were covered, but they stuffed up and left Oleg to pay the bill, which he might have just palmed off to Ubisoft anyway. (Pacific Fighters, the add-on in which the Grumman planes appeared, was done mostly by and at the instigation of, Ilya and his crew, unlike the rest of the Il-2 series.) A similar thing happened with the cover-art on the Pacific Fighters retail boxes, which had stuff in it that Oleg himself wouldn't have included. In fact it might have been the use of the Grumman name on that which alerted the legal eagles at Grumman that someone might have done something they could make money off. Along those lines, it was also pointed out that, just by coincidence, some head honcho at Grumman had recently moved over to work for Microsoft just before all this shit went down, and back then Microsoft's CFS3 was still competing with Il-2... but that's getting into conspiracy-theory territory, and this is about rumours and hearsay, not conspiracies, so, yeah...I can't remember if there were any more Grumman Planes in development that never saw the light of day after all this happened, but I think there were.

All in all it was a shame more wasn't made of the whole Pacific theatre side of the sim, but really, to do it justice would have required a whole other team of developers. There was just too much to do. Hopefully any add-ons for SOW won't be so half-arsed. But again, who knows. In cases like this I find it better not to expect anything, or to think of what could have been.