The Ultimate Question -- Ext Views vs Locked Cockpit

[zxwings]

Wonderwoman view as in IL2 is very helpful in flight training and in the understanding of an aircraft's flight process. So it is very useful for offline use of a flight sim.

External views are clearly also necessary components of a flight sim in offline use - for instance, you certainly need the external views when you are studying a recorded tack of an online air combat.

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[Azimech]

I think WW is useful for training only two things: learning to land a Corsair on a carrier and learning the difference in IAS and TAS for every altitude. Understanding the process of flying is done by reading IMHO, and the limited amount of instruments in WW can cause you to learn wrong. For example, it has no slip/ball and vertical speed indicator. Plus altitude is measured above ground level, so you still need the speedbar. But instead of looking at the ground altimeter, one learns it properly by examining the ground first, which falls under situational awareness.

Student pilots don't learn to fly in WW, they start with the Basic Six and LOTS of theory. Then again my father learned me to fly Flight Simulator II back in 1984, which had no external views, no WW and such graphics that flying the instruments was the only way to get it right. WW cannot ever compensate for lack of theory when learning to fly. And you learn quicker with the limited view a cockpit provides, you learn flight patterns.

One error I used to make was to attack in cockpit mode, then switch to F6 when the plane disappeared from direct view. Someone pointed that out. Nowadays I stay in the 'pit and roll/turn my plane so I can keep my eyes on him, and my flying has improved. If I lose him out of my sight, the lesson is that I didn't anticipate his move, or my actions were wrong, or both.

[SEE]

Since having 6DOF (Freetrack) I only use cockpit for both SP and On-line. Prior to that it was always 'open view' so having TrackIR or Freetrack is the enabling factor for me.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by dduff442

This came up again in the weekly update thread and I thought I'd throw in an unfashionable point of view: external views are great. I've nothing against closed-cockpit servers -- they're certainly more realistic but this doesn't translate to more challenging or interesting.

External views + wonderwoman view allow for a (potentially) perfect dogfight where flight characteristics and technique are key. There's less randomness and the encounters actually look better. I'd never play an offline with external views active but a quick and easy 1 on 1 is great fun. Online with external views is great as well. 1-on-1 online has given me my greatest Il-2 memories.

dduff

Let the rage begin -->

Simple.

Let the mission creator decide.
If they want uber realism, lock into cockpit.
If they want Hollywood, unlock.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Erkki

Full switch, Everything else is waste of my time...

With ext views allowed, anyone with normal hand-eye coordination can easily achieve perfect SA. The game becomes a silly climbrace. Its anything but what real air war was.

EDIT: and no I dont use TrackIR.

again, closed pit snobbishness is breathtaking sometimes.

perfect SA means that it then becomes being able to fly ACM perfectly, to outfly your opponent with what you are able to do, rather than creep up and knife someone in the back without them seeing you. two different kettles of fish.

the real air war was hardly something to find enjoyment in. imnsho.

Originally Posted by Flying Pencil

Simple.

Let the mission creator decide.
If they want uber realism, lock into cockpit.
If they want Hollywood, unlock.

for uber realism you'd better also strap a large incendiary device under your chair as well.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

again, closed pit snobbishness is breathtaking sometimes.

perfect SA means that it then becomes being able to fly ACM perfectly, to outfly your opponent with what you are able to do, rather than creep up and knife someone in the back without them seeing you. two different kettles of fish.

the real air war was hardly something to find enjoyment in. imnsho.

for uber realism you'd better also strap a large incendiary device under your chair as well.

It seems that some people have to devaluate other people to polish their ego.
There is no such thing as "uber-realism", either you simulate as close as possible to reality or you play a game, it's that easy.

[WTE_Galway]

Babylon 5 Star Furies were based on IL2 no-cockpit view ...

[matsher]

Closed cockpit simply does not closely resemble "REAL" life simulation.
No matter how you guys would like to frame it.

The two vital immersion points are missing...
1. Sensation. - Sadly, we can never simulate the vast pressures on your body in
air combat, if you could feel the real effects of G, hardly any of us would turn like crazed raccoons. That goes for slip, and landing, turbulance and engine management... Its actually far easier to fly a real plane that it is to fly il2... You can feel a real plane, but you can't in il2...

2. Peripheral vision - Now this is something that can be addressed.
I love flying closed pit, especially with all the new graphic work that has been done in 4.09... But I also love WW view. That is all down to personal choice.
If Oleg could widen our views up/down & left/right everything would start feeling more real. We'd suddenly have a 'real' impression of how biiiiig the sky really is. No matter what view you prefer...

As for Views...

I have proposed an in between solution on the last friday's update (65% Transparent cockpit) and I'd like to have more feedback on it - it was 'improved' by a simple suggestion from Xnomad, cause many of you guys said my initial suggestion was naive would lessen Frame Rates. He suggested keep the cockpit on 100% but keep the enemy idents & tacking info moving through the cockpit.
It negates the argument about lessening FPS with the transparent cockpit having to render more 'sky'...

I'll upload the examples I made of both thoughts...

I have also added some direction and lead markers...
Notice how the direction and lead markers fade the further distance
away the target gets...

But to end...
What I feel is most important, as IL2 lifers and experienced flyers, is to grow a new generation of flyers and try and make it as 'easy'
to get hooked on the Maddox drug as possible... There will always be a purists way to fly as well as a casual way ...
Lets help new flyers get into the air to find theirs...

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by robtek

It seems that some people have to devaluate other people to polish their ego.
There is no such thing as "uber-realism", either you simulate as close as possible to reality or you play a game, it's that easy.

swings and roundabouts old chap. doesn't feel nice either way, does it.

i wasn't seeking to devalue the skill it takes to fly full switch, merely stating the difference between the two ends of the option-spectrum. neither has more objective "worth" than the other, only subjective worth to the person holding the stick and dancing through the sky, either with a cockpit or a clear view. neither way is "better", only personally preferred.

what certainly isn't the case is to say either way is the "wrong" way.

indeed matsher, one of the critical elements we lack is the sensation of g-force. although i'm sure i've seen fairly effective motion-seats, as in rock you side to side kind of thing, and i vaguely recall a sort of waistcoat that had sections that inflated to give physical feedback. sort of for fps, so it would give a hit location feeling. it may sound -and look- daft, but playing whilst wearing some kind of g-simulating-suit would probably appeal to a hell of a lot of people.

[Flanker35M]

S!

The thing is that no matter how realistic modelling of AC we have we lack the G-forces. And oh boy do those tire you up! Been in planes and after a real "G-vitamine" dogfight you are worn out, sweat like a pig and breathe heavily. Not to mention the tension of the "fight". In every book from pilots I have read how they almost yelled at their opponent after a long fight, being tired and turns getting less tight etc. In most cases the pilots just flew away to fight another day.

So whining about realism in a GAME is hardly fruititious or useful. We can have well simulated things on certain things, but lack a lot to call it realistic. We have a representation of something that happened ages ago and should enjoy it that way. IMO there is no right way to play, everyone plays as they wish and have fun with