Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[Pugo3]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

... And then there are mission constraints e. g. a pilot on CAP does not have the luxury of avoiding the fight.

Yes, I've discussed this before too, events presented in such a way as to demand engagement. Others have posted accurately, as you mentioned as well, regarding not engaging certainly being the best option in many instances; however, the opposite was true as well. Mission constraints, someone in trouble, etc.

What I am proposing is simply to have the opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a classic dogfight with another type, and the challenge of using your aircrafts' strengths and your piloting abilities to overcome an adversary. Robert Johnson described coming upon a Spit Mk IV when flying a T-bolt with the new paddle blade props - with an exchanged look and thumbs up sign, the Brit and US pilot began a mock combat, which ended with Johnson gaining the win [established kill position, checkmate] You read such accounts from all sides, seeing how one aircraft maneuvered with another in a close in fight. It is a primal instinct of fighter pilots to want to test their aircraft against a rivals bird.

However, as I related in my original posting, presently a 51' or 47' will not dogfight a 109 or 190. A late war Japanese fighter will not dogfight a Hellcat. An Oscar will not engage a Wildcat. Never. The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes. Yet combat accounts of dogfights between these aircraft include close in dogfights that lasted sometimes up to 15 minutes or more. It is amazing to me how vigorously and venomously some persons argue and resist this simple truth. The game would be enhanced, not degraded, by the simple addition of close in dogfighting being included as an option for all aircraft.

p3

[X-Raptor]

+1 Pugo3! well described, I agree with you at 100%.. but hey!, you can notice that this forum isn't very friendly for people like you & me.. check this instead where other simmers like us describe and (with reasons) criticize 4.12 A.I. : http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...wtopic&t=17382

..and you will not see any reply by any "ace/teacher" like you can find here in this forum where people only tell you that A.I. 4.12 is all OK(...) and reason is just because you are a shit-player

[K_Freddie]

You know the AI is still easy, It is different to the previous versions and more aggressive. This is very much what a human rookie pilot would be like.

I find myself having to fly a bit more harder, but nothing spectacular. That I leave for human opponents online.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

+1 Pugo3! well described, I agree with you at 100%.. but hey!, you can notice that this forum isn't very friendly for people like you & me.. check this instead where other simmers like us describe and (with reasons) criticize 4.12 A.I. : http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...wtopic&t=17382

..and you will not see any reply by any "ace/teacher" like you can find here in this forum where people only tell you that A.I. 4.12 is all OK(...) and reason is just because you are a shit-player

I (and others) encouraged you to improve your flying skills and were even willing to provide examples of how... I certainly didn't call you a "shit player".

[Derda508]

I know, that the initial question was about dogfighting in QMB, but I just had an experience in a campaign, that I want to share.
Presently I am flying two blue campaigns parallel: Desaster at the Frontiers (Europe) with Bf 109 and later Fw 190, and Asia for the Asians (Pacific) with Ki-27 and later Ki-43. I am late in 1941 in both campaigns and it is quite unbelievable that the 109 F2 and the Ki-27 were in the air and fighting at the same time.
But to the point: In the pacific campaing with Ki-27 against I-153 and I-16 you get all the dogfighting that you can wish for. The plane set of both sides is build for this. The Russian I-16 would love to get you to dogfight in your Bf 109 as well, but you would be pretty unwise to do it. So, what kind of fight you get, depends very much on the aircraft you choose. With P-47 vs. Fw 190 it seems pretty unlikely to get a dogfight, with the rice bowls against the Ratas you will have it. And, thanks to the new patches, some of the AI will surprise you even after years of playing: yesterday evening, close to the end of a mission, I encountered a pair of I-16 in my Ki-27. After some wild curving I managed to get behind one of them, tried to get it into that miserable gunsight .. and was shot down by the other one. I watched the track and yes: it really looked as if they did me in with very well coordinated drag and bag tactics. I repeated the mission several times (well, I had to, because I was shot down ...) but whenever I met these two Ratas, they did the same thing, even when I still had some wingmen with me: picking me out as the flight leader, one playing the bait, the other one getting behind me for the kill. And then they tried the same with the rest of my flight. Well, I think that this is VERY impressive for AI behaviour and certainly a most exiting dogfight.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by Derda508

After some wild curving I managed to get behind one of them, tried to get it into that miserable gunsight ..

Take time to learn deflection shooting and you won't have this problem so bad.

Do you keep ordering your AI to cover you? They forget otherwise. Not saying that they will do a great job anyway.

AI enemy always go after the host online or off. If you host online coop vs AI, have the host do the drag and your mostly ignored friends do the bag.

[Derda508]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Take time to learn deflection shooting and you won't have this problem so bad.

You are absolutely right. If was a better pilot, I would not be shot down that often. If I was a better marksman, I would get more kills.
But the gunsights in Ki-27 and early Ki-43 makes deflection shooting even more difficult, beause they are blocking so much field of view, that´s why I curse them.

[MaxGunz]

What FOV are you using?

From close in you don't use the sights much. Just get the fire across the nose and let him fly through the stream. Zoom the view to at least middle and use the sight like the bead on the front of a shotgun.

At 100m and under just go by where your nose is pointing and give it 1/2 second or less, trigger timing is worth far more than sight picture which zoomed in by the time you see the target inside the sight it's too late to shoot anyway. Your biggest problem is not ramming the target.

Yes it takes practice. Lots of practice. Sitting ducks bombers with no ammo practice just so you can work on seeing what works and not to the point where it's reflex.

I tell the same thing when it comes to flying better. Practice just flying with no enemies so you can concentrate on basic and advanced maneuvers while being able to watch the instruments and just some view over the nose until flying without slip becomes second nature.

When you try and learn/perfect everything at once, you don't learn any of it really well. IRL the ones that spent months just flying before working on gunnery and then tactics had the best chance in combat and even then they picked up more after training than before. You don't want to be struggling to keep up when you should be polishing your SA skills. You might as well be a LW rookie in 1945 or a Brit newbie in the BoB.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes.

That's odd, because from 4.11 onwards I've noticed the AI is more averse to playing "keep-away", and they have a few more tricks other than just rolling to throw someone off.

Obviously if they're flying a plane with a speed advantage they'll tend to leg it away from you, but I've seen Fw 190s get down and dirty trying to turnfight Russians on the deck. Point in case:



That's a Fw 190F tangling at knifepoint with a MiG-3U, both Average AI. The fight went from 5000m to sea level before the 190 finally pulled too hard into a turn and spun in. Speaking of which, while AI spins are a nice inclusion, it tends to only happen with Veteran and Ace AI, while the rookies play it safe. I'd expect the Rookies to spin their aircraft in carelessly sharp turns more often and take longer to recover (or even not at all).

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Yes, I've discussed this before too, events presented in such a way as to demand engagement. Others have posted accurately, as you mentioned as well, regarding not engaging certainly being the best option in many instances; however, the opposite was true as well. Mission constraints, someone in trouble, etc.

What I am proposing is simply to have the opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a classic dogfight with another type, and the challenge of using your aircrafts' strengths and your piloting abilities to overcome an adversary. Robert Johnson described coming upon a Spit Mk IV when flying a T-bolt with the new paddle blade props - with an exchanged look and thumbs up sign, the Brit and US pilot began a mock combat, which ended with Johnson gaining the win [established kill position, checkmate] You read such accounts from all sides, seeing how one aircraft maneuvered with another in a close in fight. It is a primal instinct of fighter pilots to want to test their aircraft against a rivals bird.

However, as I related in my original posting, presently a 51' or 47' will not dogfight a 109 or 190. A late war Japanese fighter will not dogfight a Hellcat. An Oscar will not engage a Wildcat. Never. The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes. Yet combat accounts of dogfights between these aircraft include close in dogfights that lasted sometimes up to 15 minutes or more. It is amazing to me how vigorously and venomously some persons argue and resist this simple truth. The game would be enhanced, not degraded, by the simple addition of close in dogfighting being included as an option for all aircraft.

p3

It's odd that you say they begin an endless series of B&Z jousting... and yet my experience directly combats that. You want to see endless B&Z and I encourage you to find some highly disciplined pilots online who will do that. The AI likes to mix it up dogfight style more often than not.

The track files I posted before (conveniently located here: http://sdrv.ms/1bDuTyK ) show them doing the close in fight thing. They do that a lot.

Now... what you suggested with having the ability to give the AI a couple of different flight profiles does make a lot of sense. I can actually see that working well for both fighters and bomber/attack aircraft as it would be nice to specify to the AI that you want dive bomb, strafing attacks, single pass strafing, or level bombing. Similarly being able to tell them to do a close in fight or boom and zoom ...not exclusively but as a preference would be a neat feature. There may be further delineations but it does make a lot of sense. A good and reasonable suggestion!