Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[IceFire]

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

[Derda508]

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

[gaunt1]

So, my own test (no track sorry)

8 Bf-109G6 early (Veteran) vs 8 La-5FN (Veteran), 2000m
I deliberately replaced the Spitfire with the La-5, because the soviet fighter is far more dangerous, especially at that altitude, and especially because it has unrealistic, overmodeled FM.

First, some facts:

- Bf-109G6 is ABSOLUTELY no match for a La-5FN, it has far worse flight characteristics in every imaginable aspects, at any altitude.
- Im not a good pilot, mediocre at best.
- I usually fly Yaks and Japanese planes, and sometimes P-51 or Spitfire. (besides bombers)
- I dont have much experience with the Bf-109 (because I hate it)

Result: I survived for about 4-5 minutes. During that time, I even managed one kill, but almost immediately, another Lavochkin (not the wingman of the downed one, he was from the second flight) quicky got in my back. I managed to hold him, primarily with barrel rolls, he exhausted all his ammo supply, while I got only a few hits, without noticeable damage. Unfortunately, a second La-5 shot me down after this. End result: 6-6, two planes returned to base from both flights.

Conclusion: While the chance of survival in the above setup is very low, and AI can cheat with its immunity to G, and with an overmodeled UFO aircraft (La-5FN), the myth that AI kills you with one salvo in a few seconds is BUSTED!

[Janosch]

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Janosch

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

I love the combat report!

IDing planes is a way that the AI definitely cheats. They have to know or not know and its difficult to program them with a degree of uncertainty that a human player would have... also I imagine it would be very expensive on the CPU side of things to have that many routines running all the time.

[X-Raptor]

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism. And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches: they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

I respect the opinon of everyone here about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism. And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches: they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

I respect the opinon of everyone here about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

Oh there are problems with the AI but so far your problem with them is that they are too difficult. Which isn't the same argument.

Furthermore you've argued that TD has introduced more cheating with the AI and that is also false. They have added more realism to the AI and there is less cheating going on. Just a few examples include:

1) Now they deflection shoot.
2) Now they can't see through the bottom of their aircraft.
3) Now they are affected by the overheating of their engines and must open their radiators to cool it down.
4) AI turret gunners are less accurate, less prone to first shot hits, and are more affected by G forces.

All introduced by TD. There's probably more that the AI is doing better now than ever before. Very contrary to some of your statements. Furthermore, if the argument is (and you have made it) that you can't shoot down Veteran or Ace AI or that they are too difficult... then that is not a problem with the AI (not specifically). It'd be wise to separate the two issues.

Everything else about candy, children, and foot fetishes is beside the point.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism.

Oh I can do criticism, chum. Just where it's warranted.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches:

Yeah, that's right. I congratulate those who put a massive amount of effort and their free-time into adding new content - FOR FREE, YOU PAY NOTHING -to an old game that would otherwise have died years ago. And yes, funnily enough I believe in carrot based motivation and the expression of appreciation. it's called being a) a grown up and b) polite.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

What a steaming pile of horse manure. TDs additions have not only breathed new facets into the game with additional aeroplanes and functionality to improve realism but actively improved user interface with the game from widescreen and TrackIR support. This game has never been so fresh. Sure she's showing her age against contemporaries graphically in some regards but the AI beats any recently released sim, hands down.

In fact the only stale thing round here is your frankly odorous (and onerous) attitude. It stinks.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

I respect the opinion of everyone here

Ha! Could have fooled me. I suggest you reappraise your comprehension of the word respect. Your attitude shows nothing but contempt for most of the people here, particularly those who dare to slog over and release such 'stale' content.

What really astounds me is that somehow you think this tack, this line of belligerent abusiveness is actually going to accomplish anything? How would you feel if someone came along bad-mouthing something you'd spent months working on for no pay and that you had proffered to them for no financial reward? I suspect you'd tell them were to shove it. Why on earth do you expect any different in return?

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

...about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

Are there areas that could do with improvement with the AI? Sure. A few little niggles: I don't think fighter bombers dive bombing routine is particularly accurate for Allied tactics. Sometimes the G affect on AI seems less pronounced than perhaps it should. I still occasionally see transports or bombers doing barrel rolls in formation. These could all do with work.

Difference is I know that there are certain difficulties, some of them insurmountable in the process of fixing them:

Problem 1 - THERE ARE CONSTRAINTS; the engine is limited to what it can physically process in terms of AI computations, it also 13 years old now and there are limits to what you can ask of it

Problem 2 - AI is only ever a poor analogy to true intelligence even at the highest orders of computing; what the hell do you expect from a 13 year old game engine? Getting it to make mistakes is probably harder to do than to get it to shoot straight!

Problem 3 - to my knowledge there is only one TD member dedicated to working with the AI; he has a family and a day job to contend with. So given that he does any and all work in his free-time you cannot expect immediate resolutions to even obvious faults.

When you combine all 3, you might start to grasp why it that the majority of us here appreciate the hard work he does and are understanding and patient when (or if) issues do arise.

The simple fact is that you suck. You don't like that you suck and you don't have the courage to acknowledge it. Until you do, you won't appraise your flying skills with any sense of objectivity and won't recognise your mistakes; and recognising where you suck is the first step of correcting that behaviour and working out how to improve.

Either that or you bin this game game and go fly War Thunder. I for one won't miss you, and given your attitude to most of the other members, I doubt anyone else will be crying at your departure either.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Derda508

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

Thanks

No, it probably won't but I decided after my first post that... hey... lets just do this thing and record it. Me doing a 8 v 8 with various fighters is just a normal thing I like to do to keep my flying semi-sharp. I rarely have time to get in any serious time these days but last night I was wired from working late (totally had a second wind) so I did it anyways.

Plus I had fun.

[X-Raptor]

Originally Posted by IceFire

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

ok m8, you then are an ACE player..congrats..probably you have the lucy to stay many hours of day with your joystick in the hands and you can manage to win even with all those cheats made by uber A.I. created by TD.
But this not solve the matter that people like you are rare, and general average player folks (like me..) continue to be frustrate to see this UBER- CHEAT A.I. (and more and more after every DT paches..). regards.