Another question for TD..

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by horseback

My first thought is that the AI cheat. Shamelessly.

You're better off telling your wingman to go get him; that way, once he's on the wingman's tail, you'll have a better shot at him.
horseback

Yeah but sometimes it seems my AI wingmen are looking at porn or something other than flying my wing.. and other times it amazes me how spot on they are.. It's weird.. and then there is the AI gang bang.. 12vs12 fight.. You have an entire flight.. sometimes a flight and a half or even two all shooting at you at the same time.. Something is wrong there.. One thing I have noticed about the AI .. sometimes it seems like if you try to look out for the AI as if they were live pilots they seem to respond better.. I don't know if that is actually true or not .. but often it seems like when I drop a potential kill to clear an AI's 6 I live longer... LOL maybe that's because the other AI are all trying to steal my kill so he doesn't have the chance to turn on me when there are numbers...

[Treetop64]

It's funneh when you've got something like twelve thousand AI bandits all over your backside, and when you order your flight - and the second flight if they're there - to do something about it, they all go after one guy!

[Lagarto]

Indeed target selection by AI is kind of unrealistic. For example, when attacking a stream of bombers (I'm talking about DGen campaign, not a FMB mission), they pick up a bomber somewhere at the front of the stream, and desperately try to get to it, oblivious to all others they pass by. Of course they never get that far because they are shot to pieces by gunners from all other bombers they try to ignore. It's most evident with B-17s which have so much defensive firepower.
It would also be great to 'teach' AI head-on attacks on heavy bombers.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Indeed target selection by AI is kind of unrealistic. For example, when attacking a stream of bombers (I'm talking about DGen campaign, not a FMB mission), they pick up a bomber somewhere at the front of the stream, and desperately try to get to it, oblivious to all others they pass by. Of course they never get that far because they are shot to pieces by gunners from all other bombers they try to ignore. It's most evident with B-17s which have so much defensive firepower.
It would also be great to 'teach' AI head-on attacks on heavy bombers.

And IF they accidentally do get to it, then one shoots his entire ammoload at it and sets it on fire, the second one ignores this and shoots at the bomber too, which by then burns from more than tank and so on.
Target priority algorhytms of the AI currently are bad. And while the enemy AI does work as a team, your own flight does not. And contrary to real life you can't even communicate with them...

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

And IF they accidentally do get to it, then one shoots his entire ammoload at it and sets it on fire, the second one ignores this and shoots at the bomber too, which by then burns from more than tank and so on.
Target priority algorhytms of the AI currently are bad. And while the enemy AI does work as a team, your own flight does not. And contrary to real life you can't even communicate with them...

I definitely understand this and how it doesn't make any sense at all to shoot at a burning bomber. I curse the AI while I'm offline... and then I take a step online and what do I see? Three guys all jockeying for position shooting at a burning bomber.

I do think the AI targeting could be more teamwork oriented... but I'd argue against it being too logical or absolute. Humans aren't all that logical

[shelby]

Can i ask something else?
What is the difference between the pe-8 and the tb-7 or db-3f and il-4?

[JtD]

The Pe-8 and TB-7 are basically two designations for the same aircraft, as are DB-3 and Il-4. Essentially TB-7 and DB-3 are early designations, Pe-8 and Il-4 late ones.

However, there were subversions that differed from one another. In game we have a Pe-8 with AM-35 engines, and a TB-7 with M-40F diesel engines, which is the key difference here. The main differences between the Il-4 and the DB-3F are the fourth crew member and the upper turret, mounting a 12.7mm gun instead of the 7.62mm gun.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I definitely understand this and how it doesn't make any sense at all to shoot at a burning bomber. I curse the AI while I'm offline... and then I take a step online and what do I see? Three guys all jockeying for position shooting at a burning bomber.

I do think the AI targeting could be more teamwork oriented... but I'd argue against it being too logical or absolute. Humans aren't all that logical

Yeah but that's point-whoring - and because some human ONLINE pilots do it does not excuse the AI. I'd bet that in real life a pilot shooting at a burning plane while there were still plenty of undamaged targets would have had to explain his behaviour to his commander. AI targeting could be at least improved for veteran and ace level. They should know better. There is some more odd behaviour with AI targeting. A nearly undamaged plane with only a dead pilot flying straight and level will not be engaged by anyone -not even FlaK. The AI shouldn't be able to "see" a dead pilot until very close - and maybe even shoot at the plane.

[ElAurens]

All this is why I almost never fly offline.

The AI cheat, cheat all the time, and do nothing but cheat.

I'd rather be shot down by a human that had to actually work for it that by my own computer, which is what the AI are.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Yeah but that's point-whoring - and because some human ONLINE pilots do it does not excuse the AI. I'd bet that in real life a pilot shooting at a burning plane while there were still plenty of undamaged targets would have had to explain his behaviour to his commander. AI targeting could be at least improved for veteran and ace level. They should know better. There is some more odd behaviour with AI targeting. A nearly undamaged plane with only a dead pilot flying straight and level will not be engaged by anyone -not even FlaK. The AI shouldn't be able to "see" a dead pilot until very close - and maybe even shoot at the plane.

My hypothesis is that humans are humans regardless of the situation be it real life or simulation. When presented with the same basic parameters they will do the same basic things on aggregate. In the heat of combat, target fixation becomes a concern and two guys shooting at the same burning plane can (and did) happen. There's even a gun camera shot that I saw where one Hellcat's gun camera captures another Hellcat fly in front of him while what appears to be a Zero is getting shot at by both. So, while it's less likely that point whoring would go on in real life (at least not like we see it)... target fixation looks fairly similar. At least some of the notorious kill stealing and shoulder shooting is caused by total target fixation. You can watch it happen. They are oblivious to all around them.

The problem with the AI right now is that they have a switch. If the target has bailed out or lost a wing then the aircraft is considered dead. If the plane is burning but still flying then it's considered a viable target. What needs to be programmed is a a greater range of recognition.

For example, the AI should keep firing if it's a plane that they lit on fire because just because it's flaming doesn't mean that it's going down. Maybe it should only do this 75% of the time (roll the dice) and sometimes leave a flaming aircraft alone. The AI should check and see if they lit it on fire... if not then leave it. Perhaps that happens 75% of the time. Or variable ranges depending on Rookie or Ace level.

The biggest problem I have with AI and AI programming, and I know exactly why it happens (CPU resources), is that it's too mechanical. Humans make all kinds of snap micro decisions and they aren't all logical or predictable. The AI, with a basic level of programming, is entirely logical and predictable and obviously that's less desirable.