Native German person with engineering backround is needed for DCS Fw190

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No, I think he was trying to say that he would like to have effects in line with his interpretation of realism or 'soul', so lots of Holywood whizzing and banging and other aspects designed to prevent the end user having to potentially suffer the more frequent and monotonous aspects of real world combat aviation. The sensation of flight let alone combat flight will, sad to say, never be recreated on a home computer setup, some of the perceived soul must be donated by the end user and not expected from the simulation, so it's still a little strange to hear expressions like 'the sensation of really being there' being validated by effects that were never really there.
I think CoD got it all spot on, not quite as complex as DCS, graphically stunning, closest to the sensation of real flight possible on a PC and just the right balance between realistic monotony and air combat excitement.
I do get it, I know that some people aren't interested in pure realism and don't have time in the day for stuff like that, I just never understood how quick missions don't seem to satisfy those quick instant action fixes, I thought that's why we have games like wings of prey, war thunder and Janes air combat thingy, it still baffles me why whenever a developer wants to go down a realism route, gangs of console style players want to steer it down the arcade path.....like theres still not enough arcade style games for them.
DCS is a superb product and is yet to realise it's full potential but I will bow to your experience as to what it really sounds/feels like when bullets and missiles hit your aircraft but for me a dull thud is good enough as long as you know what is happening, in my nearly 20 year flying career I have heard/felt what it's like to have various things hit the airframe (a tree, concrete fence post, metal spike, runway, chunks of ice) and most resulted in a reasonably dull thud by combination of the nature of aircraft structures and the way impact is reported through it and the sound attenuating effects of a headset/helmet, the lack of feedback from the real world is accurate and is one of the reasons why the sound radar effect many complain about is well founded.

You throw around a lot of words like "console", "arcade" and others like that in this post, I also don't have time for games that claim to be sims (it is why I don't play Birds of prey, War thunder and the Strike fighters series) but too often it is used to describe sims that only guilty of not being CloD, frankly, I don't get it.

We can go round and round as to what makes a sim but the fact is that Feathered was indeed talking about the "feel" of the sim, this is not something that needs to involve making the sim "arcade", it only means that you take some time to provide the player with more feedback, it is the difference between the scripted stalls in Lock-on vs the realistic stalls in the DCS series, the difference between the rather flat feeling of IL-2 1946 vs the rather vibrant feel of Cliffs of Dover.

Now, I know this will rankle some feathers here but I think Rise of flight is even a good example of giving the player the sensation of flight, I mean, you can hear the wind rushing past you, you can feel the aircraft bouncing about and you get a real feel for it as a result, now, while I love DCS A-10C to death, I do think that adding a few little things here and there that will give the player the "feel" of the aircraft in a more real way would only be a good thing.

Imagination is great, it is the reason any of these sims have appeal but in this day and age we have the means to provide a lot of kinesthetic feedback that is both realistic and thrilling to the player (sounds, feel of the controls, feeling of aircraft weight, etc).

In ragards to A-10C's sound, I doubt having a SA-8 smacking you in the tail would result in a dull thud in the way we hear it in DCS A-10C, now, I don't expect them to go out and record a SAM hitting a aircraft but it would be pretty neat if you heard a more dynamic sound, to be honest, that is really my only complaint and it is a very minor one considering the amount of realism they were able to achieve.

Lets not throw around hyperbole like "arcade", "console" and "casual" as a convenient way to insult someone (or someone's) without actually knowing if they truly are casual or arcade players, I mean, even CloD has it's realism settings so lets not pretend that this is the only sim in town and we here are the only ones who understand what a good flight sim is.

Every time I see another sim mentioned here (like DCS FW-190), it is only a matter of time before one of the regulars here posts a reply that takes a rather obvious jab at it just for not being CloD, to me, that is pretty sad as we all probably enjoy other sims (including the DCS series) when we are not flying around in Spit's and 109's.

Well, at least I hope folks play other sims in addition to this one.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

Well, at least I hope folks play other sims in addition to this one.

Absolutely I do, I'm even guilty of playing the arcadey ones too and even ROF.

Sorry you took my post so personally...

[addman]

"Feel" in a flightsim is -for me personally- very important. I guess some hardcore sim developers think so too, take A2A for example and their Accu-Feel add-on (yeah, it even has the word "feel" in it). That small little add-on breaths life in to even the lowliest of FSX add-on aircraft. I love to fly my PMDG MD-11, it's a wonderfully simulated aircraft but accu-feel gives it a real soul. It makes a difference and I'm not the only one who thinks so, it's a top seller on many simware sites. The feedback of flying a real plane is sooooo far from the sterile environment of a PC cockpit and that's the biggest thing that is missing from flight simulators, you may model a plane 100% perfectly but that doesn't mean it feels right. This is beginning to sound more and more like an ad for A2A but I have to say, the closest I've ever come to feeling the same as flying a real plane is when I fly the A2A Cub with accu-sim. It might sound extra stupid coming from someone who has never actually flown a real plane but it's hard to describe, just awesome though. So yeah, model every knob, get every aerodynamic calculation right and every rivet perfectly placed, it still won't guarantee a plane that feels awesome to fly, feel is equally important for me anyway. This of course does not include, Tie-fighter physics, there are limits.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by addman

"Feel" in a flightsim is -for me personally- very important. I guess some hardcore sim developers think so too, take A2A for example and their Accu-Feel add-on (yeah, it even has the word "feel" in it). That small little add-on breaths life in to even the lowliest of FSX add-on aircraft. I love to fly my PMDG MD-11, it's a wonderfully simulated aircraft but accu-feel gives it a real soul. It makes a difference and I'm not the only one who thinks so, it's a top seller on many simware sites. The feedback of flying a real plane is sooooo far from the sterile environment of a PC cockpit and that's the biggest thing that is missing from flight simulators, you may model a plane 100% perfectly but that doesn't mean it feels right. This is beginning to sound more and more like an ad for A2A but I have to say, the closest I've ever come to feeling the same as flying a real plane is when I fly the A2A Cub with accu-sim. It might sound extra stupid coming from someone who has never actually flown a real plane but it's hard to describe, just awesome though. So yeah, model every knob, get every aerodynamic calculation right and every rivet perfectly placed, it still won't guarantee a plane that feels awesome to fly, feel is equally important for me anyway. This of course does not include, Tie-fighter physics, there are limits.

How can something modelled to 100% accuracy feel anything other than right?......awesome is always going to be subjective and very personal.

This really beginning to become a desire for style over substance......which wings of prey achieves perfectly.

Note that the key to your ultimate satisfaction came from 3rd party software, something CoD may in all likelyhood have benefited from given the chance...........Thank god for Team Fusion.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Oh, I'm sorry, just not sure how else to refer to casual/console/arcade style players in any other way, I had no idea the litteral was perceived as an insult.

Because you are using the terms to describe anyone that seems to disagree with you, the terms you use (console player, arcade, etc) are used as insults, you know it, we all know it, this is a FLIGHT SIMULATION forum, there are some here who see those terms as insults, you know it and that is why you do it.

Personally, I don't see them as insults, I play enough flight sims to know what a simulation means vs a arcade experience

Originally Posted by bongodriver

How can something modelled to 100% accuracy feel anything other than right?......awesome is always going to be subjective and very personal.

This really beginning to become a desire for style over substance......which wings of prey achieves perfectly.

Note that the key to your ultimate satisfaction came from 3rd party software, something CoD may in all likelyhood have benefited from given the chance...........Thank god for Team Fusion.

And here is another fine example of what I am talking about, you are saying that we all want "style over substance" just because we don't agree with your personal views, you make it even more predictable by taking the time in the end of this statement to praise CloD, we get it, you really like CloD, so do we, that is why we are all on this forum.

I don't know if you are just doing it to get a rise out of people or if you really don't see all the subtle (well, not that subtle) ways you take pot shots at anyone who disagree's with you but it is getting kinda predictable at best and just tiring at worst.

So, can we just get back to talking about DCS FW-190 and not continue the usual debates that have (frankly) solved nothing at all?

[bongodriver]

No, really, I'm using the term to desribe casual/arcade/console players

are you saying the best way for me to engage in conversation even if I take a contray view is to not say anything at all?

do you just wan't me to shut up because I don't appear to agree with you?

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No, really, I'm using the term to desribe casual/arcade/console players

are you saying the best way for me to engage in conversation even if I take a contray view is to not say anything at all?

do you just wan't me to shut up because I don't appear to agree with you?

No I am saying that anyone who has a different opinion than you is treated like they are trying to dumb down flight sims or something.

I have said my peace, this debate has gone on too long and it is going in circles.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Absolutely I do, I'm even guilty of playing the arcadey ones too and even ROF.

Sorry you took my post so personally...

I did not take it personally, just pointing out what it was.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I did not take it personally, just pointing out what it was.

Oh, I'm sorry, just not sure how else to refer to casual/console/arcade style players in any other way, I had no idea the litteral was perceived as an insult.