Luftwaffe bombers

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I deliberately didnt include that plane in my list. Do-17 is in CoD, so we cant have that plane in official patches. Only mods.



completely agree with you. A Me-410 would be awesome, even without player controlled rear guns.
A flyable Do-217 would be also great in the game, especially if the M1 (K1 with DB603) and the earlier E2/E4 would be included too. Although the K/M variants were better, but personally I like the E much more. It could perform dive bomber missions (E2) too, and the had much heavier forward firing firepower than the K/M, a flexible MG-FF and a fixed MG151/20 (E2) or MG-131 + MG151/20 (E4). There are also much more documentation available for the E2/4, although I dont know if they are still available or not. But I would upload them gladly if somone needs them...
Regarding night fighter variants, (J/N) those wouldnt be useful at all in the game, even if we would have radar systems modeled. They were very very bad planes, pilots hated them. They were probably the worst night fighters of the war, their flight performance was actually worse than the bomber variants! Plus relatively few were built.

Seems like if we had the Do217K-1/K-2 modelled internally it would be no difference to have a M-1... just engine differences.

I wouldn't completely rule out the Do17. The Wellington is also in Cliffs of Dover but it will be in 4.12... that said, the Do17 is fairly limited in use to maps and scenarios we already have. Unless I'm seriously mistaken... they had their heyday in 1940 and were replaced by other bomber types including the Do217 later on. I've done a lot of campaign scenarios now and I don't think I've ever been wanting a Do17 to fill in a gap somewhere.

Really after 1940 the usage would be Finland's 15 aircraft but I'm not sure how extensively those were used. I've read more about the Finland modification to the Ju88 that was used than the Do17.

Interesting about the Do217 and the night fighter being really bad. I didn't know that.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I wouldn't completely rule out the Do17. The Wellington is also in Cliffs of Dover but it will be in 4.12...

The Wellington in 4.12 is a MK.III - a bit out already of the BoB phase.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

The Wellington in 4.12 is a MK.III - a bit out already of the BoB phase.

True that! And definitely not a BoB only type aircraft... Wellingtons used throughout the war. When they were retired from Europe operations they were still over other theatres and in Burma.

[hafu1939]

I honestly disagree. Do 17 wasn`t present only in the BoB. SCW (E, F, P), Poland (E, M, P, Z), Norway (P), BoF, Balkans, Eastern front – Do 17s were flown in all these campaigns.
Do 217E-2, E-4 – +1.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by hafu1939

I honestly disagree. Do 17 wasn`t present only in the BoB. SCW (E, F, P), Poland (E, M, P, Z), Norway (P), BoF, Balkans, Eastern front – Do 17s were flown in all these campaigns.
Do 217E-2, E-4 – +1.

Of those mentioned we have only a tiny piece of Norway and lots of Eastern Front. But it's more than just being flown... was it a major or significant type in a huge way? I could be wrong... I was about the G3M Nell bomber but my understanding is the the Do17 design had reached the end by 1941 and was replaced. I can't find any significant actions it fought. Perhaps Finland used the Do17 the most after 1941.

Again... if faced with a decision between types. I'd rather have the one that saw more use across a greater range of dates and scenarios rather than the more obscure one that isn't easily used as a historical type. A Do17 would be cool... don't get my wrong. But a Do217, it's direct successor, would be so much more useful as a flyable aircraft - IMHO. I just see it as a matter of a lot of time invested in doing a project... I'd love for it to be maximally useful. And if we're going by the premise of the OP... then we already have the Ju88 and the He111 representing two excellent early war Luftwaffe bombers. We have a lack of mid and later war bombers available as flyable. Exception being the Ar234.

[ElAurens]

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this, but won't most German bombers pretty much grounded in 1944 as scarce fuel was allocated to fighters for home defense?

If so it seems like a waste of resources to model late types.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this, but won't most German bombers pretty much grounded in 1944 as scarce fuel was allocated to fighters for home defense?

If so it seems like a waste of resources to model late types.

Not all. KG/100 for example used guided rockets (I forget which type) on bridges around the time of the Seelow Heights battle... just before the Belorussian Front moved on Berlin. They were flying the Do217.

Some Me410s would have been in operation fairly late on as well... but you're right that the priority was for the fighter defenses by that point. But I think by late bombers were talking about types that were fairly active and busy during 1942 and 1943 with some more limited use in 1944 and 1945.

[Juri_JS]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this, but won't most German bombers pretty much grounded in 1944 as scarce fuel was allocated to fighters for home defense?

If so it seems like a waste of resources to model late types.

The torpedo bombers from KG-26 based in Norway were also active in early 1945. The planes flown were the Ju 88A-17 and the Ju 188A-3. I think the last combat mission against an Allied convoy was in February 1945.
The reconnaissance squadrons in Norway were also using the Ju-88 and Ju-188. They even had a few Ar-234.

[Fenice_1965]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Of those mentioned we have only a tiny piece of Norway and lots of Eastern Front. But it's more than just being flown... was it a major or significant type in a huge way? I could be wrong... I was about the G3M Nell bomber but my understanding is the the Do17 design had reached the end by 1941 and was replaced. I can't find any significant actions it fought. Perhaps Finland used the Do17 the most after 1941.

Again... if faced with a decision between types. I'd rather have the one that saw more use across a greater range of dates and scenarios rather than the more obscure one that isn't easily used as a historical type. A Do17 would be cool... don't get my wrong. But a Do217, it's direct successor, would be so much more useful as a flyable aircraft - IMHO. I just see it as a matter of a lot of time invested in doing a project... I'd love for it to be maximally useful. And if we're going by the premise of the OP... then we already have the Ju88 and the He111 representing two excellent early war Luftwaffe bombers. We have a lack of mid and later war bombers available as flyable. Exception being the Ar234.

Btw Icefire is right from another point of view. It is rare to use the Do17 because we lack the early war planes usually needed to make a scenario around it (early spits and 109 first). I agree on the fact that it would be' cool to have it.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Seems like if we had the Do217K-1/K-2 modelled internally it would be no difference to have a M-1... just engine differences.

Yes, exactly. The M was the same as the K, but with DB-603A engines. It boosted the top speed from 515-520 to 560, so it was the fastest bomber of LW built in significant numbers.