Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

[robtek]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

So I guess that your comments




and those that you posted on the PN's are worthless to this discussion and not worth bothering with? I take it the NACA report on the Spitfire's desirable stall behaviour was wrong because according to you the PNs say otherwise? Thanks for contradicting yourself again Crumpp...

You seem to forget that there is a very distinct difference between slow speed stall behavior, which is desirable, and high speed stall behaviour, which might result in a flick roll and is undesirable.

You just mix the resulting explanations as you like.

[Crumpp]

You just mix the resulting explanations as you like.

That is the case.

Does not matter what the facts or that all of this is definable unlike anecodotes.

The bugtracker post is almost finished. I will submit it in the next day or so.

[Crumpp]

I can look at your graphs all day, it doesn't change the fact that the same report from NACA gives avery different picture to yours

Well so far, you all have been quoting a different report on a different subject.

It does not make any sense but I guess it keeps you happy and feeling like you are contributing.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Well so far, you all have been quoting a different report on a different subject.

It does not make any sense but I guess it keeps you happy and feeling like you are contributing.

I believe I was refering to the text boxed in NZtyphoons post which is the same NACA report you are refering to, it does feel good contributing to the facts.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by robtek

You seem to forget that there is a very distinct difference between slow speed stall behavior, which is desirable, and high speed stall behaviour, which might result in a flick roll and is undesirable.

You just mix the resulting explanations as you like.

Look again and you will see they clearly talk about 'accelerated flight'...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by robtek

You seem to forget that there is a very distinct difference between slow speed stall behavior, which is desirable, and high speed stall behaviour, which might result in a flick roll and is undesirable.

You just mix the resulting explanations as you like.

So let me see if I understand you correctly..

When a spitfire experiences a high speed stall that results in a 'flick roll' it is undesirable..
When a Fw190 experiences a high speed stall that results in a 'flick roll' it is desirable..

Interesting..

Because we have all heard heard the stories of the German Fw190 pilots that used this technique to evade someone on their six, where they would intentionally cause a high speed stall (acc stall) that would cause the Fw190 to 'flick roll' onto its back to preform a fast split-s maneuver.. Which was a good (desirable) trait as far as the German Fw190 pilots were concerned..

So it appears that you have a double standard..

Spit does it it is a bad thing
Fw190 does it it is a good thing

Which IMHO sounds like you are the one who will just mix the resulting explanations as you like

[robtek]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

So let me see if I understand you correctly..

When a spitfire experiences a high speed stall that results in a 'flick roll' it is undesirable..
When a Fw190 experiences a high speed stall that results in a 'flick roll' it is desirable..

Interesting..

Because we have all heard heard the stories of the German Fw190 pilots that used this technique to evade someone on their six, where they would intentionally cause a high speed stall (acc stall) that would cause the Fw190 to 'flick roll' onto its back to preform a fast split-s maneuver.. Which was a good (desirable) trait as far as the German Fw190 pilots were concerned..

So it appears that you have a double standard..

Spit does it it is a bad thing
Fw190 does it it is a good thing

Which IMHO sounds like you are the one who will just mix the resulting explanations as you like

Are you nuts???

Where in this thread have i ever talked about a 190 and its stall behaviour???

Even Spitfire pilots used this accelerated stall flick roll as a last resort escape maneuvre, i've read somewhere.

It is i. e. bad, when one is pursuing in a spit and it happens, changing the hunter to the prey in the worst case.

Btw, the 190 tactic was especially successful in a low level flight

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by robtek

Are you nuts???

No.. are you?

Originally Posted by robtek

Where in this thread have i ever talked about a 190 and its stall behaviour???

Please re-read my post and note that I never said you did..

I simply noted how hypocritical some of the blue minded members in this forum can take one airplane trait, in this case the acc stall 'flick' and refer to it as a negative trait when talking about non-blue planes and refer to it as a positive when talking about blue planes..

That is to say I was not specifically talking to you, as much as I was talking about some of the the blue minded members of this forum.

In short, if the shoe fits, ware it, if not than don't.

Originally Posted by robtek

Even Spitfire pilots used this accelerated stall flick roll as a last resort escape maneuver, i've read somewhere.

It is i. e. bad, when one is pursuing in a spit and it happens, changing the hunter to the prey in the worst case.

Btw, the 190 tactic was especially successful in a low level flight

Interesting..

So you agree that both the Spit and Fw190 had this trait..

And you also admitted how it can be a good trait when used to escape..

Yet in your previous post, when talking about the Spitfire you made no mention of the positive..

Only the negatives!

And it was not until I called you out on it that you agreed this trait can be a good thing.

Which speaks volumes about you IMHO..

For future reference

A more balanced approach, that mentions the pros and cons, would have brought a bit more credibility with it.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

No.. are you?


Please re-read my post and note that I never said you did..

I simply noted how hypocritical some of the blue minded members in this forum can take one airplane trait, in this case the acc stall 'flick' and refer to it as a negative trait when talking about non-blue planes and refer to it as a positive when talking about blue planes..

That is to say I was not specifically talking to you, as much as I was talking about some of the the blue minded members of this forum.

In short, if the shoe fits, ware it, if not than don't.


Interesting..

So you agree that both the Spit and Fw190 had this trait..

And you also admitted how it can be a good trait when used to escape..

Yet in your previous post, when talking about the Spitfire you made no mention of the positive..

Only the negatives!

And it was not until I called you out on it that you agreed this trait can be a good thing.

Which speaks volumes about you IMHO..

For future reference

A more balanced approach, that mentions the pros and cons, would have brought a bit more credibility with it.

It is always boring when the old red vs blue flag is waved again.

You should remember that it is not about this trait that we are talking, but how to get there!

Willingly or inadvertently?

Of course it was done, as a last resort, even as flick maneuvres were explicitly forbidden in the pilots notes.

Also there are enough Spitfire fans which will point out every positive aspect possible.

Even in a very specific thread where by now at least 50% of the posts are slightly or completely off topic.

Even some of mine, sorry for that.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by robtek

It is always boring when the old red vs blue flag is waved again.

You should remember that it is not about this trait that we are talking, but how to get there!

Willingly or inadvertently?

Of course it was done, as a last resort, even as flick maneuvres were explicitly forbidden in the pilots notes.

Also there are enough Spitfire fans which will point out every positive aspect possible.

Even in a very specific thread where by now at least 50% of the posts are slightly or completely off topic.

Even some of mine, sorry for that.

Flicks were not forbidden in the MkII notes