Horton

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Sorry, but that's what you asked. Not unique aspects but any.

I only added the word in 'unique' in my last post to you for clarification..

In that you were listing (counting) Me262 design aspects that other planes already had..

But the question at hand was what design aspects of the Me262 were used in post war fighter jets..

As in what did the Me262 do that no one else was not already doing during the war..

Which stemmed from the 'myth' that the Me262 was the first jet fighter design with the intent of making use of swept wing 'technologies'

But as we now know, the wings on the Me262 were NOT swept with the intend of making use of swept wing technology, the wings were swept to correct the cg

The purpose of pointing that out is that once you remove that FACT.. You would be hard pressed to find any 'unique' design aspects of the Me262 that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

With that in mind..

That is why I found it odd that you would list/count 'jet engines' as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs

Because the USA and Brits both produced jet fighters during WWII that saw service in WWII, thus the jet engine can NOT be listed/counted as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was use in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

So jet engines it is and swept wings.

As noted above, jet engines were not unique to the Me262, and the swept wings were not an intentional design aspect with the purpose of taking advantage of swept wing technology. Thus neither can be listed/counted as Me262 design aspects that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Because that what it was the first swept wing jet fighter in combat service.

It was the first jet fighter in service, whose initial design included straight wings, but was later changed to correct the cg. In short, it was dumb luck that it just so happened that sweeping the wings to correct the cg also improved the high speed characteristics. To make an analogy using the old reese's peanut butter cup commercials.. Where it was dumb luck that a guy with a jar of peanut butter ran into a guy with a chocolate candy bar.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

It don't even matter for what reason it was.

It does when your trying to dispel the myth that the Me262 was the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. As I pointed out before, the history channel types belive that, and the only way to belive that is to belive the Germans were YEARS ahead of everyone else.. Which they would have to be for the Me262 to be the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg, thus the Germans were not as advanced as the history channel would 'lead' people into thinking and thus 'feeding' on the notion that 'sells' that the Germans were some sort of supermen or being assisted by aliean from outer space.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

High speed trial proved the advantage of...
So latest when the thing flew they knew.

Agreed

Just as the guy eating chocolate with peanut butter knew and thus proved the advantage of the combination of the two

Originally Posted by tools4fools

But then there's still the question of the inner wing.

Agreed

There is no proof as to why the inner wing was swept..

But if I had to guess, I would suspect it had something to do with what STORMBIRDS said.. i.e.

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

Aesthetics..

As in it just looked better to do it that way

Originally Posted by tools4fools

V2, first ballistic missile, ahead of its time

Not really..

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

In that even Von Baurn admitted he used many of Robert Goddard's rocket designs from the 20s and 30s in the construction of the V2

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Me 262, first swept wing jet fighter in service, ahead of its time

But not the first intentionally swept wing fighter design

Big difference!


In summary

The history channel type of history that sells is to give the impression that the Me262 showed up out of no where and caught the allies by surprise.

Which was NOT the case

The only 'unique' thing about the Me262 was the swept wings.. Unfortunatly the history channel type of history that sells gives the impression that the swept wings were by design to take advantage of swept wing technology.

Which was NOT the case

As a mater of fact just about every nation involved in WWII..

• Designed a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Prototype a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Produced a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Employed a jet fighter before the end of the war

Therefore one can NOT be safe in saying the Me262 was the sole inspiration of all post WWII jet fighter designs.

With that said..

Maybe it would help you understand my point of view if I gave you an example of a truly unique WWII weapon that did influence the world post WWII?

Take the ABOMB for example

Only one nation involved in WWII..

• Designed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Prototype an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Produced an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Employed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

Therefore one can be safe in saying the ABOMB was the sole inspiration of all post WWII ABOMB designs.

I hope that helps you understand my point of view! S!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

Why even bring nationalism into this discussion,

What did I say that is considered nationalism?

It is a historic fact that the Germans considered themselfs 'super human' and better than eveyone else..

But that is not me being nationalistic..

That is me stating stating history..

And stating why it is so important to dispel this belive that one nation or one people have some great genitic advantage over another!

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

"Ace"? Aren't there as many "Germanic" Americans as there are Germans in Germany?

Not sure..

But I would not be suprised..

In that as I pointed out in one of my previous posts..

As far as a blood line goes, I am a full blooded German..

Both my grand parents came from Germany and as far back as the records go on my father side is 1610..

And I know my grandparents were not the only Germans to leave Germany!

[arthursmedley]

Roflmao! What a great thread! And what a terrific sense of deja vu.
In another place, in another time;


http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...pt+wings+me262

Ace of Aces appears on page four, post number 39. Enjoy!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

consistency is a virtue!

[tools4fools]

But not the first intentionally swept wing fighter design

Sure it was. Not initially, but after 42 when the research on swept wing was incoporated (and the inner wing swept as well).

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

So show me his 'ballistic missile' then. How far did it reach.

Sorry, but I can't see how anyone would take you serious with comments like that, obviously created by your mind to fit your simple minded views:

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Funny enough too that you discredited 'design aesthetics' as other reasons for swept wing when it didn't suit your 'CoG only' theory, now that you need a straw to make it look as nothing but 'dumb luck' you use it yourself...

consistency is a virtue!

Uhhh...yes, true, you twist and bend what you say all times plus create a little stuff when needed, so guess that's some form of consistency.

Your way at looking at things is actually at least as bad as history channel.
____

[robtek]

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

[addman]

Originally Posted by robtek

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

I agree on this and I also think that we should be careful not to d evaluate the advancements in aero and rocket technology that "ze Germans" made before, during and after the war. There's good reason why both Soviet and the States were scrambling to get all those left over German scientist/engineers to their respective sides.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Uhhh...yes, true, you twist and bend what you say all times plus create a little stuff when needed, so guess that's some form of consistency.

The fact that you can not attack the message and have to resort to attacking the messanger speaks volums with regards to your argument.

On that note, me quoting what 'experts' said about the reason why the Me262 wings were swept is not what I or most would consider twisting and bending what was said.

Where as you on the other hand have no proof let alone quotes to support your theories would be considered twisting and bending what was said.

So, I think this is a good point for you and I to agree to disagree.

S!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by robtek

Btw, the wing of the 262 was of course intentionally swept and not accidentially.

Yes it was intentionally swept to correct the cg due to the heavier than expected engines..

Which is very Very VERY different from intentionally sweeping the wings to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

Originally Posted by robtek

It really doesn't matter if the intention was to get better aerodynamics or a different cog.

It does when your trying to dispel the myth that the Me262 was the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology.

As I pointed out before, the history channel types belive that, and the only way to belive that is to belive the Germans were way ahead of everyone else..

Which they would have to be for the Me262 to be the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology.

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology, thus the Germans were not as advanced as the history channel would 'lead' people into thinking

That being the Germans were some sort of super race and/or being assisted by aliens from outer space.

[robtek]

AoA,

to dispel a myth hard facts are needed, not the opinion of "Experts" who try to explain something with second hand knowledge.

None of them was present when the design decisions were made.

And as already was said, the german engineers and developers were the most precious price for the winners, that has never been disputed by anyone, afaik.

It is very disturbing to see such a crusade to denigrate something/someone.