Bug 174 on 12lbs boost. Review please.

[fruitbat]

I think what Crumpp is getting at is purely fighter vs fighter, in which he is correct.

Of course this is ridiculous as the only opposition for the Luftwaffe was RAF fighters, but the RAF had bombers to shoot down as well.

Air superiority is only important so your airforce can inflict damage on the ground after all, and was the German goal for an invasion....

But he has to show that the Luftwaffe were superior somehow.

[Al Schlageter]

Numerical parity?

Aug 13 1940
Jafu 2 and 3 had 891 Bf109s while 11 Group had maybe 440 (22 sqd x 20 a/c) Spitfires/Hurricanes.

[bongodriver]

440 spits and hurris against 891 whine 'o' 9's.....i call that a parity

[Glider]

On the 13th August 1940 at 09.00 hrs Fighter Command had the following servicable fighters in the UK

■Blenheim - 71
■Spitfire - 226
■Hurricane - 353
■Defiant - 26
■Gladiator - 2

People get hung up about numbers of aircraft but as has been stated pilots are much more important. It takes a lot longer to train a pilot than build an aircraft and you cannot just up the production.

For the Luftwaffe Pilots were if anything a bigger problem than for the RAF.

On the 29th June the Luftwaffe had 856 servicable single engine fighters and 906 pilots ready for duty
On the 29th September the Luftwaffe had 712 servicable single engined fighters and 676 pilots ready for duty

On the 29th September the RAF had the following servicable fighters:-

■Blenheim - 59
■Spitfire - 227
■Hurricane - 387
■Defiant - 16
■Gladiator - 8

The earliest numbers I have for the ARF servicability are for the 17th July

■Blenheim - 67
■Spitfire - 237
■Hurricane - 331
■Defiant - 20


So if your comparing 109's against Spits and Hurricanes the RAF broadly speaking retained their strength whereas the 109's were reduced significantly and without the 109 the air war couldn't be won

[Crumpp]

The raf took heavier losses? Didnt know that. I thought they had to shoot them down at a better rate than 2-1 to win

Yes the RAF took heavier losses than the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe consistantly won the aerial engagements but each loss the RAF inflicted added up in the big picture.

The RAF logistical system was able to maintain and replace their losses while the Luftwaffe's system was not.

Both airforces had pilot shortages before the battle even began.

The basic difference in the two logistical systems was who was responsible for repairs.

The Luftwaffe Jadgegeschwaders TO was responsible for each aircraft in the unit. When it was damaged, he had to see to its repair with his unit assigned maintenance personnel. If it required organizational level maintenance, then the airframe was sent off but still remained on that Geschwader's books. The unit was down an airframe until it came back repaired or was stricken off and replaced.

The Squadrons in the RAF did not own the airframe. Squadron maintenance personnel performed for the most part only basic maintenance and mission configuration changes. The RAF had an organization called the Civilian Repair Organization. Basically every airplane repair facility in the United Kingdom was pressed into service repairing RAF aircraft and was made responsible under Air Ministry supervision for the airframes. They also ran the ASU or Aircraft Supply Units which were storage facilities located on British airfields that housed the airframes that were ready for issue.

As an aircraft was damaged and could not be repaired for the next flight, it would be pushed to the side and the CRO would take responsibility of it. They would issue a servicable aircraft and repair the damaged one putting it back in the ASU when repairs were completed.

This translated into the RAF being able to keep their units at a much higher strength throughout the course of the battle despite their higher loss rate.

The logistical genius of the CRO/ASU combined with some good pre-war planning on the industrial side so that the United Kingdom exceeded its aircraft production goals in single engine fighters and outproduced the German 2:1. The serviceability rates of the RAF actually rose during the battle to 98% while the Luftwaffe's servicability rates steadily declined.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

[macro]

Total losses of aircraft in the Battle of Britain


Month----------------RAF------Luftwaffe
July (from10th)------90--------165
August--------------399-------612
September-----------416------ 554
October-------------182------- 321
Total----------------1087----- 1652

this (posted by someone above, dont know if its accurate) shows that the germans took considerably heavier losses, or am i missing the point entirely here

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Yes the RAF took heavier losses than the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe consistantly won the aerial engagements but each loss the RAF inflicted added up in the big picture.

What a load of BS.

Total losses of aircraft in the Battle of Britain

Assuming these are correct, haven't checked from my books

Month----------------RAF------Luftwaffe
July (from10th)------90--------165
August--------------399-------612
September-----------416------ 554
October-------------182------- 321
Total----------------1087----- 1652

The RAF did loose more fighters than the Luftwaffe, but not more planes.

So much for consistently winning the aerial engagements.

Or do bombers not count.......

[bongodriver]

The air must be very thin where Crumpp is....the guy is just not right in the head.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The Luftwaffe consistantly won the aerial engagements but each loss the RAF inflicted added up in the big picture.

I just finished reading Stainhilper's 'Spitfire on my tail' again and he thinks otherwise.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Yes the RAF took heavier losses than the Luftwaffe.

No, it was the other way around, that's why they lost this 'Battle of Britain'.

[Glider]

To be fair to Crumpp he is correct about the British having a better production and repair set up so the RAF were never in any real danger of running out of aircraft.

However the RAF were training more pilots than the Luftwaffe which enabled them to maintain the numbrs. No one is trying to pretend that the mid 1940 training of the RAF was up to pre war standards but then again neither was the Luftwaffe training.
The RAF trained 300 pilots a year in 1935, by August 1940 they were training 7,000 pilots a year. You do not get that size of increase without problems and shortages of everything, training aircraft, trainers, airfields take your pick. I do not know the numbers for the Luftwaffe but would expect them to also suffer shortages as they would also be ramping up whilst fighting a major campaign

Basically the RAF were better prepared infrastructure wise that the Luftwaffe (including fuel)

I totally disagree with his assertion that the Luftwaffe consistantly won the air battles. If he could support that with numbers lost compared to actual kills it would be interesting. Or he could explain why so many bomber raids were turned back before reaching the target, a lot got through but a lot didn't.