Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[Stipe]

No. We want to hack and steal.
What else do you want? We went about legal solutions and generic interface at least ten times. All was said. What now? How is the weather in the land down under?

[sigur_ros]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

no body is saying FT shouldn't be used in a clean form... remove the need for NP files and your more than likely set.

Naturalpoint themselves admit it is clean in this edit to Freetrack wikipedia page:

" In the new FreeTrack releases the copyrighted material has generally been removed from the binaries"

From horses mouth.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Novotny

Edit whilst posting:: I just noted Madblaster's response, and as such should read Blackdog's post, even though it's bound to take me into bloody March.

Edit:: Hi Blackdog! ignore the above

Surprised, are we?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

NP doesn't seem to want their software used in such fashion though

That's the thing we will agree to disagree on then. If i alter my registry to make my PC think that "blackdog's awesome headtracking software" is naturalpoint's dll file, that doesn't change the fact that what i'm using is in truth NOT naturalpoint software, with no software of NP being used in any way or form. What's used is windows registry editor. If sometime in the future ms sidewinder sticks got blacklisted by the flightsim developers i'd do something similar and tell my PC that my joystick is in fact a generic model to keep it working.

The workaround is a cause of the restriction, not the other way around. Plus as long as the workaround doesn't use copyrighted bits, apart from the game IDs i mentioned before which according to law should not be copyrightable in the first place, it's perfectly legal.
I don't get what the fuss is all about.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You know full well that unless NP software is installed on the machine, Freetrack can't use NP anything to access what it wants. The clear example of this is FSX. It has its Simmconnect, yet users pan that in favour of using the FT through NP route... this has been mentioned before.

Actually i don't know it, that's what i said in my previous post. Unless someone opens the files in a programming tool and goes through the code comparing bit by bit to tell me how it's done, i can't pass judgment either way. Maybe FT's dll is a hacked knock off of NP's dll, maybe it's not, but i won't pass judgment when i have no proof whatsoever either way.

Maybe i wasn't clear and you misunderstood how it works? In this case let me rephrase it. The game doesn't need to use any kind of NP software for headtracking to work. What it needs is to think it's using NP's dll because there's no alternative standard in the industry yet, but the actual file can be substituted by any suitable software.

It's like we're 20 years in the past and the only one making PC joysticks is quickshot. You buy a stick from a brand new company named CH products but the games you play only recognize quickshot, because they were made when nobody else made joysticks. What do you do? You make your game think that you're using a quickshot stick, but you are very much indeed using a CH products stick in reality. Are you infringing on anyone's copyrights? Not really. What you are doing is making up for obsolete games not supporting your alternate hardware, that's all. Of course this scenario never happened because people back then didn't hold copyrights on which stick works with gameports.

Illustrating this distinction (between actually using someone else's copyrighted software as opposed to making your hardware think that you are when you're not) is why i keep mentioning my buddy and how he coded his own headtracker. The guy did everything from scratch, he just "told" his PC "this is the file you want, work with that". At no point is any kind of NP software getting used.

And before someone says "but the registry key is filed under a naturalpoint title", well, if we were to pay royalties every time we type down the company's name then every single one of us posting in this thread would be in big trouble already
It's not naturalpoint at all, he just tells his PC that it is but it's not.

If the games would work with a generic interface he would tell his PC that it's a generic headtracker, or maybe a trackIR user who wanted to use another piece of software could make his PC "think" that his trackIR camera is not tracIR but a wiimote working under freetrack, etc etc.

As long as the code is not copied and distributed verbatim and the hardware items have been bought and paid in cold hard cash, it's no business whatsoever of the guy making it how the end user customizes them. That's my attitude in general about consumer rights. You have my money, i have your receipt, i'm respecting your copyrights/trademarks/patents, so it's none of your business what i do with it from now on.
If i buy a car and i want to make modifications, the most the car company can do is void my warranty. However, if the modifications are done properly the car won't refuse to start.




EDIT:

Originally Posted by sigur_ros

Naturalpoint themselves admit it is clean in this edit to Freetrack wikipedia page:

" In the new FreeTrack releases the copyrighted material has generally been removed from the binaries"

From horses mouth.

Interesting, so they used some of NP's code almost verbatim but now they don't anymore? That's just superb then, should be no reason whatsoever for FT not to work with CoD.

Where have you been the past 40 pages man? You could have saved all of us a ton of typing

[LoBiSoMeM]

I'll quote myself...

Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM

What I really don't understand is why ArmAII and O:A can have TIR and Freetrack suport, BIS devs can talk about the subject, and here we speculate a lot of things...

Why? Someone of 1C staff can please answer me that question?

It's so funny the fact that NP guy W-R NEVER touch the point that BIS made accessible to users BOTH TIR and Freetrack interfaces...

He just go in circles, bitting own tail... Let's get to this point. I don't care about NP, I care about Freetrack suport - and other HT solutions. And we have BOTH INTERFACES SUPORT into a major title like ArmAII...

Why?!?!?!?! Please, W-R, Novotny, someone... give me a good reason why we can have both interfaces suports in one big title of a big company and we have a "problem" with IL-2:CoD devs even in talking about Freetrack suport?

I'm paranoid?!?! I don't think so... Let's talk about that, please! BIS can use Freetrack AND TIR interface! Freetrack devs didn't make any "professional approach" of BIS, just the costumers demand Freetrack suport, as here. And BIS put easily Freetrack suport into ArmAII, with no drama...

Please, let's elaborate that, not entering in some pointless discussion: why we can in ArmAII and not in IL-2:CoD?

[julian265]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Interesting, so they used some of NP's code almost verbatim but now they don't anymore? That's just superb then, should be no reason whatsoever for FT not to work with CoD.

Where have you been the past 40 pages man? You could have saved all of us a ton of typing

Whatever changes were made, they were made in 2008, with the last release of FT, and the wiki edit.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

That's the thing we will agree to disagree on then. If i alter my registry to make my PC think that "blackdog's awesome headtracking software" is naturalpoint's dll file, that doesn't change the fact that what i'm using is in truth NOT naturalpoint software, with no software of NP being used in any way or form.

You forget about the interface, which is copyright. If there was no NP developed interface (SDK) in the game, you wouldn't have Freerack except for what it could do on its own.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

What's used is windows registry editor. If sometime in the future ms sidewinder sticks got blacklisted by the flightsim developers i'd do something similar and tell my PC that my joystick is in fact a generic model to keep it working.

What is used is a plethora of aps which, 1. strip out the NP encryption (which has already been agreed, it is quite okay to protect their work)
and 2. modify game executables.
3. your not telling your pc that there is type of stick different to what that stick in reality is, you're telling your pc that a cheap camera is a TIR unit

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

The workaround is a cause of the restriction, not the other way around.

Glad you've noticed that...

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Plus as long as the workaround doesn't use copyrighted bits,

Again, I totally agree with you

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

apart from the game IDs i mentioned before which according to law should not be copyrightable in the first place, it's perfectly legal.

Is there any reason why Ftreetrack (or other similar) can't create their own game ID's? why do they feel it necessary to use NP's? (I've asked before)

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I don't get what the fuss is all about.

dunno mate, you tell us. You complain about things going around in circles, then go and take things around in circles yourself...

look below


[QUOTE=Blackdog_kt;225188]

Actually i don't know it, that's what i said in my previous post. Unless someone opens the files in a programming tool and goes through the code comparing bit by bit to tell me how it's done, i can't pass judgment either way. Maybe FT's dll is a hacked knock off of NP's dll, maybe it's not, but i won't pass judgment when i have no proof whatsoever either way.

[/QUOTE


Actually, you do know it and do seem to be making judgement

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Maybe i wasn't clear and you misunderstood how it works? In this case let me rephrase it. The game doesn't need to use any kind of NP software for headtracking to work. What it needs is to think it's using NP's dll because there's no alternative standard in the industry yet, but the actual file can be substituted by any suitable software.

Thank you, you've admitted (bold section) that the Freetrack has to use NP software, which negates everything you've put earlier. You've contradicted yourself before BD and so many times...

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

It's like we're 20 years in the past and the only one making PC joysticks is quickshot. You buy a stick from a brand new company named CH products but the games you play only recognize quickshot, because they were made when nobody else made joysticks. What do you do? You make your game think that you're using a quickshot stick, but you are very much indeed using a CH products stick in reality. Are you infringing on anyone's copyrights? Not really. What you are doing is making up for obsolete games not supporting your alternate hardware, that's all. Of course this scenario never happened because people back then didn't hold copyrights on which stick works with gameports.

BD, your joystick thing is a comlete furphy as Microsoft supply natively USB drivers for joysticks to use. The gameport being dropped thing, has been done before, the same as AGP was dropped (now, there's a thought... get your AGP slot to recognise a PCIExpress card )

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Illustrating this distinction (between actually using someone else's copyrighted software as opposed to making your hardware think that you are when you're not) is why i keep mentioning my buddy and how he coded his own headtracker. The guy did everything from scratch, he just "told" his PC "this is the file you want, work with that". At no point is any kind of NP software getting used.

oh, come on that one was bad even for you at the end of a long post... seriously. see contradiction

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

And before someone says "but the registry key is filed under a naturalpoint title", well, if we were to pay royalties every time we type down the company's name then every single one of us posting in this thread would be in big trouble already
It's not naturalpoint at all, he just tells his PC that it is but it's not.

Royalties aren't part of the topic at hand though and the NaturalPoint name is Trade Mark and see contradiction

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

If the games would work with a generic interface he would tell his PC that it's a generic headtracker, or maybe a trackIR user who wanted to use another piece of software could make his PC "think" that his trackIR camera is not tracIR but a wiimote working under freetrack, etc etc.

If the various games had a "generic interface" (which, by the way is the consenus and a consensus you have mentioned before yourself, there wouldn't be a problem. Mouse Look (aka Freelook) for one, is available... FSX offers a SIMMCONNECT (again, which gets passed over in favour of the NP route.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

As long as the code is not copied and distributed verbatim and the hardware items have been bought and paid in cold hard cash, it's no business whatsoever of the guy making it how the end user customizes them. That's my attitude in general about consumer rights. You have my money, i have your receipt, i'm respecting your copyrights/trademarks/patents, so it's none of your business what i do with it from now on.

there's this little thing you're forgetting called the End User Licensing Agreement... you don't "own" the product, you own the right to run it (as supplied)

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

If i buy a car and i want to make modifications, the most the car company can do is void my warranty. However, if the modifications are done properly the car won't refuse to start.

Possibly true... another they can do is to refuse to touch any of the modified parts, if the car is in for repairs. But this really has nothing to do with the thread.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

FreeTrack appears to be the only TrackIR compatible software to have removed the two text strings, others continue to be distributed with them in the binaries.

EDIT:



Interesting, so they used some of NP's code almost verbatim but now they don't anymore? That's just superb then, should be no reason whatsoever for FT not to work with CoD.

Where have you been the past 40 pages man? You could have saved all of us a ton of typing

The all important, and increasingly necessary part, of putting things in its proper context

"FreeTrack did not deny copyright infringement, and responded to a request from NaturalPoint to remove the copyrighted material by producing new releases. In the new FreeTrack releases the copyrighted material has generally been removed from the binaries and replaced with tools which allow the user to violate the copyright themselves when TrackIR support is used. This shifts the burden of copyright violation necessary for unauthorized use of the TrackIR enhanced interface from the FreeTrack developers to end users of FreeTrack."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=224257031


I don't know how you could have missed that one, BD but when taken in context with your comments on "owning" software... I guess you may have

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM

I'll quote myself...



It's so funny the fact that NP guy W-R NEVER touch the point that BIS made accessible to users BOTH TIR and Freetrack interfaces...

He just go in circles, bitting own tail... Let's get to this point. I don't care about NP, I care about Freetrack suport - and other HT solutions. And we have BOTH INTERFACES SUPORT into a major title like ArmAII...

Why?!?!?!?! Please, W-R, Novotny, someone... give me a good reason why we can have both interfaces suports in one big title of a big company and we have a "problem" with IL-2:CoD devs even in talking about Freetrack suport?

I'm paranoid?!?! I don't think so... Let's talk about that, please! BIS can use Freetrack AND TIR interface! Freetrack devs didn't make any "professional approach" of BIS, just the costumers demand Freetrack suport, as here. And BIS put easily Freetrack suport into ArmAII, with no drama...

Please, let's elaborate that, not entering in some pointless discussion: why we can in ArmAII and not in IL-2:CoD?

how does the interface work in ArmAII and how many pass it over in favour of the NP route?

You don't know there is a problem with other developers, only they have not committed any comment

[Royraiden]

You guys are pathetic!Go on, release all the anger trapped inside you.Maybe it will help you feel better.

[Wolf_Rider]

No anger here... just a consensus

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

No anger here... just a consensus

Only in your own mind number six. In the end, you will see your self as number one. Then your world comes crashing down.