Friday 2010-11-12 Dev. update and Discussion

[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about.

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them

I just want people to use a little reason and common sense.

This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

[Freycinet]

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by The Kraken

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them



This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

I was just referring what Brando had said. I'd imagine Germany has had many opportunities to repeal such restrictions if they so chose to. I also understand that common sense and reason has nothing to do with this. That is the problem. It's completely idiotic to think that by banning a symbol, the idealogy will go away. If the German people and others allow it, the idealogy will flourish, swastika or not.


You are right that if user made emblems are indeed possible, everything is a moot point.

Originally Posted by Freycinet

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

Oh, poor Freycinet. I think we've wasted his valuable time. Funny since it seems he has taken it upon himself to be the defacto thread police, making snarky, useless and needlessly critical comments towards others. If he had taken the time to try and read the debate at hand rather than coming up with his usual dribble, he would see that the original point was regarding whether or not 3rd parties could add their own markings, swastikas included. The inability to add custom markings was a new possibility that had not been brought up before.

Anyway, with that said, I think my point has been made and will leave this topic be. Thanks for the civil discussion guys. It didn't snowball as badly as I feared it might.
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[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Freycinet

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

+1

[LukeFF]

Oleg, how will player control of the bombsight be handled? Will it be like it is in IL2, where it's the pilot and not the bombardier?

[csThor]

Two comments:

1.) Banning the swastika as it is done in Germy is not just a case of "If I don't see 'em, they don't exist". Suggesting this is insanely short-sighted. In fact banning the swastika is part of a complex of things which all are meant to give the state the means to keep the right-wing idiots under observation and slap them whenever they get too frisky. Unfortunately you can't ban idiocy and plain human stupidy so I'm afraid there'll be always people who were missing when common sense was handed out, people who actually believe that BS the neonazis spread.

Some people said that free speech is a valuable thing for a country. I agree. But I also believe that free speech ends there where other people are being directly threatened with physical harm just because of an ideology. There's a popular saying in Germany, one I very much agree with, which states "Nazism is not an opinion, it's a crime." And that isn't meant WRT the law.

2.) A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by csThor

Two comments:

1.) Banning the swastika as it is done in Germy is not just a case of "If I don't see 'em, they don't exist". Suggesting this is insanely short-sighted. In fact banning the swastika is part of a complex of things which all are meant to give the state the means to keep the right-wing idiots under observation and slap them whenever they get too frisky. Unfortunately you can't ban idiocy and plain human stupidy so I'm afraid there'll be always people who were missing when common sense was handed out, people who actually believe that BS the neonazis spread.

Some people said that free speech is a valuable thing for a country. I agree. But I also believe that free speech ends there where other people are being directly threatened with physical harm just because of an ideology. There's a popular saying in Germany, one I very much agree with, which states "Nazism is not an opinion, it's a crime." And that isn't meant WRT the law.

2.) A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

I don't blame them at all. Their hands seem tied.
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[WTE_Galway]

ah yes THAT boring old debate again

the truth ...

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Swastika

The swastika, based on Japanese shuriken, was invented by the Buddhists in the 1950s, and was used in their campaign to make Buddhism more interesting and more offensive. The swastika was originally a stylized Iron Cross, used by the Buddhists to inject Nazi chic into their statues and scriptures. The swastika was later used, in the 1980s and beyond, by Neo-Nazis in areas where the Iron Cross was banned from use. Ironically, the swastika is today considered more offensive than the Iron Cross, except in Austria where it is used as a peace symbol.

Germans and other Nazis refer to the swastika as a Hakenkreuz (hooker cross), because of its association with hookers, prostitutes and whores. The word swastika is banned in Germany because of its non-Germanic origins.

btw ... in reality, the swastika is also banned in other countries including Hungary, Poland and Brazil, not just the Soviet Union and Germany.

[Bobb4]

Originally Posted by csThor

A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

Easy to fix. It is a Russian law, so have the software specific to the ability to add markings compiled in another country that does not have that law.
Not sure if Speedtree is a Russian company but I am sure 1C or Oleg could not be held liable if the source code used to make the trees could be converted into making giant swastika trees

One could even suggest an export version not for sale in countries with swastika issues that would allow it...

Modders will make it happen no matter how much 1C, the Russian parliament or German Government fight against it.

For me it is not a game breaker either way

Originally Posted by Bobb4

Easy to fix. It is a Russian law, so have the software specific to the ability to add markings compiled in another country that does not have that law.
Not sure if Speedtree is a Russian company but I am sure 1C or Oleg could not be held liable if the source code used to make the trees could be converted into making giant swastika trees

One could even suggest an export version not for sale in countries with swastika issues that would allow it...

Modders will make it happen no matter how much 1C, the Russian parliament or German Government fight against it.

For me it is not a game breaker either way

GREAT IDEA! Try and skirt Russian law by trying to invent a loophole that may or may not result in jail time and Maddox Games/1C Publishers being raided and having their property seized!

We all know how reasonable and lienent the police are in Russia, and I'm sure they will have no problem with Oleg and co. making a game in Russia that will depict hate symbols outside of the country.

Oleg has already said no, why not give it up so that we don't have to read this every three posts?