The Ultimate Question -- Ext Views vs Locked Cockpit

[JG27CaptStubing]

Originally Posted by dduff442

I like night and instrument flying in Il-2, but somehow my enthusiasm wears off when I'm being shot at. Hopefully SoW will have some innovations -- g-limited or laggy artificial horizons etc. Errors in barometric altimeters will be there anyway given that weather is modeled.

Night flying in Blenheims or Bf-110s could be a real blast. I'm hoping for a 41-43 night campaign as the first expansion myself. Quirky analog electronics prone to odd readings etc. give the tech of the era a totally different feel from the digital world.

dduff

Well 4.10 is supposed to include G limits in IL2. Laggy artificial horizons? Why would you model such a thing? What does it really add to the simulation and the game for that matter? What you have to check your Compass and fix precession errors or a tumbled Gyro? You would have to get current altimeter settings throughout the flight. Sort of a waste of programming effort for a combat sim don't ya think?

Look I understand adding small details can really add to the sim but the type of things that need to be added should be geared more towards playability.

We like the fighting so that's where the focus should be. Much better AI ones that can actually fight and think more like a real person. AI aircraft are pretty horrible in the game right now. They have been improved but they just don't behave like real people.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Azimech

I always use the cockpit but in offline play I'm aware that the AI uses Omnivision so I have a disadvantage.

The AI has no engine overheat, THAT pisses me of far worse.
But then again I, don't play offline.

[WTE_Galway]

What would be awesome is to allow Wonder Woman view but also make you much more vulnerable to pilot kills from headon because there is no engine in the way to absorb the hits.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by dduff442

This came up again in the weekly update thread and I thought I'd throw in an unfashionable point of view: external views are great. I've nothing against closed-cockpit servers -- they're certainly more realistic but this doesn't translate to more challenging or interesting.

External views + wonderwoman view allow for a (potentially) perfect dogfight where flight characteristics and technique are key. There's less randomness and the encounters actually look better. I'd never play an offline with external views active but a quick and easy 1 on 1 is great fun. Online with external views is great as well. 1-on-1 online has given me my greatest Il-2 memories.

dduff

Let the rage begin -->

tbh i go for cockpit on and externals on. middle of the road, fun and gives a sense of flying different aircraft, have to use the instruments etc etc. mainly use externals for looking around myself in flight, padlocking friendlies (a bit more realistic that f6 as it gives a simulation of being able to recognise friendlies as quick as an experienced pilot might) and finding those pesky ground targets.

and, as you say, no pit boils it down to dogfighting, in that there is no being surprised by, or surprising, the opposition.

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

No rage here mate!
As I said in the other thread; when online I prefer it, coz it's fun to do; and as you say, the view is grand.
This doesn't mean I'm a beginner, or a less than capable virtual 'pilot'.
I will have to try full cockpit online though, just to compare...........

crucial
you'll find the difference is that you spend a lot more time swerving around, clearing your six and scanning the sky. it does lead to an increase in tension, and elation at spotting someone, tracking them in their blind spot and blowing them to kingdom come without them having seen you.

Originally Posted by Chivas

Off-line use whatever view system you prefer. In on-line war servers I much prefer a closed cockpit. All the outside views provide to much information about enemy movements which totally kills immersion.

only if you use them as such. just because they are there doesn't mean you have to use the f2 then f6/ground unit lock thing to get a padlock on distant targets.

but then, doing so means that you aren't pratting around in a remote section of the map when the enemy is doing exactly the same in an entirely different portion of sky, on a half empty server... fumbling around for each other fruitlessly isn't that much fun. it becomes pretty much redundant if the server is busy or action is focussed around targets, and becomes a hindrance and fun-killer for bombers and jabos of course.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by dduff442

I more or less share your enthusiasm regarding attention to AI, but I think that perfect artificial horizons are a little too artificial. Even a single parameter -- a limit on the turn rate for a given instrument -- would be useful and easily done.

Likewise, less-than-perfect altimeters would seem to go hand in hand with dynamic weather. Remember that ground control may be able to tell you the pressure at ground level but they won't be able to tell you exact conditions over the target. This would be a serious concern for, e.g., Mosquito pilots on an Oboe-assisted bomb run when impact with the ground might be a serious concern. A drop of even 50m in the cloud base could also have serious consequences.

This seems trivial to implement once the weather system's already done, IMO. I'd support the idea of making these optional in the difficulty settings.

Night time is potentially a *whole new game* -- a whole new genre in fact. 40s technology is fascinating; it's quaint and baffling at the same time.

Broadly speaking, I'm all for granting CPU-intensive stuff similar priority to GPU-intensive stuff in the sim.

dduff

Agree on all counts. Managing the aircraft sub-systems effectively does have a direct impact in your ability to perform combat tasks, hence it's not irrelevant. Difficult? Sure. Deserving separate on/off switches in the difficulty options? Definitely. But not irrelevant for a combat sim, not by a long shot.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Agree on all counts. Managing the aircraft sub-systems effectively does have a direct impact in your ability to perform combat tasks, hence it's not irrelevant. Difficult? Sure. Deserving separate on/off switches in the difficulty options? Definitely. But not irrelevant for a combat sim, not by a long shot.

This. A fight MIGHT come down to how fast you can turn your plane, but getting to that point should be more difficult than pulling on the stick. At least the option should be there for those of us that want it (hopefully).

At my age (I'm not that old lol) I've learned that I will never have the fast-twitch skills of a 17 year old that has 7 hours to spend playing the game every day. Any success and enjoyment I have had in other games has come mainly from teamwork and being able to 'out think" the other guy. The devil (and enjoyment) is in the details for me.

Splitter

[Azimech]

Yeah I feel it too... reflexes are way down... at 33!

[dduff442]

Originally Posted by robtek

No problem, one can decide: game today or rather simulation.

I get very uptight about a new sim campaign -- I train in the new a/c, avoid combat during practice (if you take off in a fighter with 1 wingman, you can 'dogfight' him) etc. It takes me weeks! That's why I enjoy a bit of gaming as well.

I have to say you hear a lot about the free-for-all ext views servers, but nearly all the flyers are at least ok. Without good technique and a bit of skill it's going to be painful flying online. Some of the players are outstanding in all categories, though I'm sure many play with locked cockpits as well.

dduff

[Azimech]

There probably is a niche for the types like Blackdog and me, who like to keep the aircraft systems harmonized to that narrow line of optimal performance, in a way learning to "feel" the engine what it can and can't do. The first period when complex management reaches it's new level, people without insight or knowledge will be fighting the aircraft much more than fighting others, like it will be with the new g-limits. In time, a few develop intuition and feel what to do, when to do it, without looking at the instruments. Experts on energy tactics and situational awareness will have a new challenge when faced with a flying Montgomery Scott. Those flying engineers won't need the cockpit view as much anymore but I wonder if they really bother about the help of Wonder Woman then. I think there will be a new class of players: full real pilots with a mix of hydraulic fluid and engine oil in their veins.

Personally I jumped with joy when Complex Engine Management was introduced and have never flown without it. Then my joy sank when I saw how limited it was.