A flyable GST?

[Verdun1916]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

My apologies for the confusion.

I'm not a programmer either, but my understanding is that amphibious landing capacity wasn't built into the game, but could easily be added.

Currently, there's nothing preventing the addition of amphibious planes in land-only or sea-only versions, but that's just "clunky" and not realistic or fun either, since the whole point of having amphibious planes is their land/sea operations potential. It also requires 2 "slots" for the same aircraft, which is wasteful.

Therefore, the only real option is to do some programming work to allow amphibious ops.

AI would have to be slightly modified to make sure that AI planes keep their wheels retracted when making a water landing/take-off, and extended for land take-offs/landings, and that retractable sponsons/wing floats get extended/retracted as necesssary. (Unless you want to introduce pilot error into the game!)

A new key would need to be bound to allow player-flyable planes to extend or retract sponsons or wing-tip floats (not just for amphibious planes, for but any flying boat which had these features).

But, FWIW, IL2 can't and doesn't model water behavior, much less the interaction of water, wind, and objects in the game world. That would require massive amounts of new programming, essentially making a new sim. That makes truly realistic seaplane ops impossible, although I don't think it would be that hard to "fake" certain wind and wave effects by increasing or decreasing water or wind effects when you're within X distance of a certain object or if you're flying at Y angle compared to wind direction. "Bobbing" effects for aircraft on water could also be made more severe as wind speed increases, but there would be no corresponding animations in the game to show the heavier seas.

Thank you! You have given me a far better understanding of the issue now!

[RPS69]

Have you ever tried the worst climate at sea?
Don´t remember the name of it, but waves are there...

[RPS69]

Have some fun:

[MAIN]
MAP MTO/load_light.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 6
CloudHeight 1000.0
player IN_NN00
army 2
playerNum 0
[SEASON]
Year 1940
Month 6
Day 15
[WEATHER]
WindDirection 0.0
WindSpeed 0.0
Gust 10
Turbulence 5
[MDS]
MDS_Radar_SetRadarToAdvanceMode 0
MDS_Radar_RefreshInterval 0
MDS_Radar_DisableVectoring 0
MDS_Radar_EnableTowerCommunications 1
MDS_Radar_ShipsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxRange 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MinHeight 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxHeight 5000
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxRange 25
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MinHeight 0
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxHeight 2000
MDS_Radar_ScoutsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_MaxRange 2
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_DeltaHeight 1500
MDS_Radar_HideUnpopulatedAirstripsFromMinimap 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutGroundObjects_Alpha 5
MDS_Radar_ScoutCompleteRecon 0
MDS_Misc_DisableAIRadioChatter 0
MDS_Misc_DespawnAIPlanesAfterLanding 1
MDS_Misc_HidePlayersCountOnHomeBase 0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat1_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat2_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat3_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
[RespawnTime]
Bigship 1800
Ship 1800
Aeroanchored 1800
Artillery 1800
Searchlight 1800
[Wing]
r0100
UM_NN01
IN_NN00
g0101
i0102
IN_NN03
IN_NN10
UM_NN02
[r0100]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Skill1 1
Skill2 1
Skill3 1
Class air.MBR_2AM34
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 130066.49 130032.46 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110114.22 130084.08 200.00 245.00 &0
NORMFLY 90082.14 129959.66 500.00 245.00 &0
[UM_NN01]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Skill1 1
Skill2 1
Skill3 1
Class air.PBN1
Fuel 100
weapons default
[UM_NN01_Way]
TAKEOFF 130048.58 128974.86 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110095.95 129001.08 200.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 90004.40 128971.93 500.00 300.00 &0
[IN_NN00]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Class air.A6M2N
Fuel 100
weapons default
[IN_NN00_Way]
TAKEOFF 130019.43 128002.30 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110012.40 127966.33 300.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 90006.35 128018.77 500.00 300.00 &0
[g0101]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Class air.AR_196A3
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0101_Way]
TAKEOFF 130048.58 127029.75 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110128.02 127017.07 200.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 89895.60 127012.19 500.00 300.00 &0
[i0102]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Class air.CantZ506B
Fuel 100
weapons default
[i0102_Way]
TAKEOFF 130018.45 126027.06 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 109984.23 125987.19 200.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 90009.27 125951.21 500.00 300.00 &0
[IN_NN03]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Class air.E13A1
Fuel 100
weapons default
[IN_NN03_Way]
TAKEOFF 130021.38 125051.58 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110178.52 124982.56 200.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 89986.95 125034.03 500.00 300.00 &0
[IN_NN10]
Planes 1
Skill 3
Class air.H8K1
Fuel 100
weapons default
[IN_NN10_Way]
TAKEOFF 130046.63 124080.98 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 110011.43 123956.58 200.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 90254.07 123981.83 500.00 300.00 &0
[UM_NN02]
Planes 3
Skill 3
Class air.F4F3
Fuel 100
weapons default
[UM_NN02_Way]
TAKEOFF_003 19284.93 130255.60 0 0 0_Chief 0 &0
TRIGGERS 0 0 20 0
NORMFLY 86722.72 127968.89 500.00 300.00 &0
[Chiefs]
0_Chief Ships.USSLexingtonCV2 1 0 2 1.0
[0_Chief_Road]
19907.65 130084.09 120.00 0 2 8.809722900390625
60345.08 129835.23 120.00
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]



I think this has been toned down. CV movements used to be far more generous on takeoff. Still, I must agree that waves effects only shows a bit while the aircraft is stationary.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Have you ever tried the worst climate at sea?
Don´t remember the name of it, but waves are there...

When there are blind, rain/snow, or thunder conditions the water texture changes to show white crests on the waves. Additionally, motion effects from waves increase under those conditions during carrier or water take-off and landing.

BUT, due to the limits of the IL2 graphics engine, you don't actually have wind speed, terrain, or large objects such as ships, influencing wave height, appearance, or direction. That makes highly realistic seaplane and amphibious ops impossible.

A realistic carrier take-off in moderately heavy seas and high winds would look like this (at about the 2:30 mark):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHnwxRfzR2A

This is what a float plane take-off would look like under similar conditions:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzjT_EEk5eI

[Verdun1916]

Thanks for Charing those clips, Pursuivant! Very interesting!

But even if we don't have and there is no way to get these extrem weather conditions for the open water areas I would still love to be able to fly a Catalina or similar amphibious aircraft or other seaplanes and flyingboats in the stock game as it is now. I already love to play around with the A6M2-N. I feel that souch aircrafts would be a great addition to have for the Norway map for example, and the Channel map when that arrives, just to mention a few.

[RPS69]

The clip where the engine falls down is excelent.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Verdun1916

But even if we don't have and there is no way to get these extrem weather conditions for the open water areas I would still love to be able to fly a Catalina or similar amphibious aircraft or other seaplanes and flyingboats in the stock game as it is now.

I agree. Since we already have the A6M2-N as a flyable plane, there's no reason to not eventually have other seaplanes as flyables.

But, we have to accept that IL2 will never allow for truly realistic seaplane operations because water physics can't be modeled or animated accurately, much less the physics and animations of wind interacting with terrain and water.

What would help seaplane operations a bit would be the option of having sea state (i.e., wave height, distance between waves, current speed, wave direction and current direction) separate from weather conditions, and even wind speed.

It might also be relatively easy to have water motion rocking and drifting effects (but not animations) correspond to wave and current direction and wave height.

[dimlee]

Originally Posted by RPS69

The clip where the engine falls down is excelent.

This one, I guess.

https://youtu.be/Vnhze7UiGbU?t=44s

[Verdun1916]

Thanks for the share, dimlee!

Another aircraft I would love to see in the stock game as converted to flyable status, the Ar 196.

[wheelsup_cavu]

Originally Posted by Verdun1916

I don't think there is any problem to make a seaplane that can land both on water and on land. The Catalinas/Nomads had retractable landing gear like most other land based aircraft. However you would need a separate key-command for the wingtip pontoons so you can use them without lowering your landing gear.

However...the difficult part I think might be the AI and to be able to get that to be able to act the correct way in the correct situation. That is making the AI know when to lower the landing gear or when to lower the wingtip pontoons depending on if it's supposed to land on land or water. I'm not sure how the already present AI PBN Nomad works when it come to landing and taking of on water compared to on land. I think it can only handle water landings and take-off's but I'm not sure. I will have to check that out.

But I'm not a programmer so this is just my thoughts on the matter and I might be wrong here.

EDIT: I did a little test with the stock AI PBN Nomad. I Used the Norway map and set the British seaplane airbase as take of point for it and the big airbase to the south of it as final waypoint and landing point to see if the Nomad would try to land there. But it seems that the AI was smart enough to realize something was afot so after reaching it's last mid-air waypoint it automatically landed back at the seaplane base instead of the land base I had designated as it's landing point.

So maybe a solution would be to have two versions of seaplanes that was historically capable of landing both on water and land. One version for water take-offs and landings only and one for land take-offs and landings only. If it's not possible to make a version that can handle both, both player and AI wise.

There are two types of spawn/stay points. One for seaplanes and one for land based aircraft. Notice at the seaplane base they are light blue and at the land base they are green. If you zoom in far enough you can see floats on the seaplane spawn/stay points. If you are having trouble on a map with planes landing weirdly in an area you may find that the map builder used the wrong type.

Sea Planes


Land Based Planes


The reason the AI flew back to the takeoff point in your mission is because the bases were so close to one another. In the mission below I had the AI fly all the way to Herdla. The AI plane did not return to its takeoff point but it did still land in the water.

[MAIN]
MAP Norway/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[SEASON]
Year 1940
Month 6
Day 15
[WEATHER]
WindDirection 0.0
WindSpeed 0.0
Gust 0
Turbulence 0
[MDS]
MDS_Radar_SetRadarToAdvanceMode 0
MDS_Radar_RefreshInterval 0
MDS_Radar_DisableVectoring 0
MDS_Radar_EnableTowerCommunications 1
MDS_Radar_ShipsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxRange 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MinHeight 100
MDS_Radar_ShipRadar_MaxHeight 5000
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxRange 25
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MinHeight 0
MDS_Radar_ShipSmallRadar_MaxHeight 2000
MDS_Radar_ScoutsAsRadar 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_MaxRange 2
MDS_Radar_ScoutRadar_DeltaHeight 1500
MDS_Radar_HideUnpopulatedAirstripsFromMinimap 0
MDS_Radar_ScoutGroundObjects_Alpha 5
MDS_Radar_ScoutCompleteRecon 0
MDS_Misc_DisableAIRadioChatter 0
MDS_Misc_DespawnAIPlanesAfterLanding 1
MDS_Misc_HidePlayersCountOnHomeBase 0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat1_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat2_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
MDS_Misc_BombsCat3_CratersVisibilityMultiplier 1.0
[RespawnTime]
Bigship 1800
Ship 1800
Aeroanchored 1800
Artillery 1800
Searchlight 1800
[Wing]
g0100
[g0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.JU_52_3MG5E
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 12961.72 20370.88 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 10000.00 23000.00 500.00 222.00 &0
NORMFLY 88000.00 14000.00 500.00 222.00 &0
LANDING 92800.58 18609.32 0 0 &0
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

Wheels