Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

[Crumpp]

PS I do owe you an apology.
You said that the design of the Spitfire wing was done at a number of colleges and I asked you which to which you gave me a number. It was a trick question which you fell for.
You may or may not know what is taught at the establishments you named, but you would not know what they use in their lectures unless you had done the course so your list must have been made up.
Also you said Cambridge as one of the establishments. Cambridge isn't a place where you study. Cambridge is in effect an admin centre for 31 Colleges or to be more precise seats of learning and none of them do aerodynamics.

I can tell you that Cranfield is the premier University for Aerospace in the UK its very advanced with their own test fleet of aircraft. We had visiting lecturers from Cranfield come to HMS Daedalus for some of our studies which included Hovercraft

Which has what to do with anything?

I never claimed to go to Cambridge. I went to Embry Riddle. I do have friends who went to other colleges and they also know of the Spitfire's instability.

What does your point have to do with that fact or any fact relevant to this discussion?

Or the fact, it is Cambridge University that published the book??

Cambridge University, Engineering Department, Trumpington Street, Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK
Tel: +44 1223 332600, Fax: +44 1223 332662

Before coming to Cambridge in October, you must complete this booklet of problems, produced by the Department. It contains questions on mathematics, geometry, mechanics, DC electrical circuits and electromagnetism, to help prepare you for lectures. There is a supporting Website containing guidance notes and links to learning resources (as well as
the booklet itself in PDF format). Your college will send you a username and password to access the material online, and will either send you a hard copy of the booklet, or direct you to print your own copy from the Website. Your
Director of Studies will give you further guidance on tackling these problems, and may ask for the work to be handed in at the start of your first term, for discussion in your first supervisions.

http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/teaching/index-freshers.html

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cambri...m&z=16&iwloc=B

[Crumpp]

The very first onset is referred to as the the "Buzz" or the "Tickle"

Right, which has what to do with the fact some airplanes have higher energy stall warning's including buzz than others?

Also, what does that have to do with the ability of a pilot to precisely fly to the nibble and precisely back off to smooth air in order to maximize his aircraft's turn performance?

[IvanK]

Are you going to have a go at answering the the dive recovery question ?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Hey guys

Based on your experances with Crump..

Is it safe for me to assume that since he has NOT produce a picture of..

How did he say it?

piles of bent wings at the repair depots during the Battle of Britain

That he was just talking out of his 'A' and that I should stop waiting for him to provide the link to said picture..

Thanks in advance!

[Crumpp]

Are you going to have a go at answering the the dive recovery question ?

I would not want to be in this situation with an aircraft that is neutral or unstable as you want to be able to pull precisely and quickly to the maximum acceleration the airframe can handle while reducing power.

We have had this discussion before on the "nibble", too. If you are in the nibble, you are NOT flying a maximum performance constant altitude turn.

What does that have to do with the ability of a pilot to precisely fly to the nibble and precisely back off to smooth air in order to maximize his aircraft's turn performance?

[Crumpp]

IvanK,

Your question really makes one wonder how many of those men did not return home because their airframe failed.

If you read Morgan and Shacklady, there is a listing of each serial number and its fate. There are early Mark Spitfires that were lost to "structural failure" or "wing came off in aerobatic flight".

[Crumpp]

IvanK,

Your question really makes one wonder how many of those men did not return home because their airframe failed.

If you read Morgan and Shacklady, there is a listing of each serial number and its fate. There are early Mark Spitfires that were lost to "structural failure" or "wing came off in aerobatic flight".

Most of the listing were just lost to unknown circumstances.

[DC338]

T-38 manual

"Begin by entering a 2 to 3 G turn with MIL power and approximately 300 KCAS. Increase the bank and backstick pressure as required to achieve the light buffet in a level turn. Note the turn rate.This is optimum turn performance for the T-38."


T-45 ACM manual:

"In general, if you don't know what to do, nibble of
buffet is a good place to start to maneuver your airplane well"

"Our break turns should be the nibble of buffet AT A MINIMUM, more like heavy buffet."

[Crumpp]

T-38 and T-45 are both jets...thrust limited and both have low aspect ratio wings.

Follow the Spitfire Operating Notes for a high aspect ratio aircraft that is aerodyanmically limited:

[IvanK]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I would not want to be in this situation with an aircraft that is neutral or unstable as you want to be able to pull precisely and quickly to the maximum acceleration the airframe can handle while reducing power.

We have had this discussion before on the "nibble", too. If you are in the nibble, you are NOT flying a maximum performance constant altitude turn.

What does that have to do with the ability of a pilot to precisely fly to the nibble and precisely back off to smooth air in order to maximize his aircraft's turn performance?

Its not a case of not "wanting" to be in the situation... Operational pilots often find themselves in situations they dont want to be in. The question put was quite specific, a Spitfire MKI no AOA gauges no accelerometers just you the pilot and your basic airframe.

How do you propose to "back off from the nibble" and by exactly how much? especially in an aeroplane with such lack of precision in the pitch circuit as you imply throughout this thread ? Your life is hanging in the balance, what cue do you have in your Spit MKI that you are doing your best ?

I think all thats going to happen with your technique is the "crump" sound as the Spitfire MKI impacts Terra firma. If you think you can back off the buzz/tickle/nibble and guarantee where you really are you are dreaming ! .... thats why buzz/tickle/nibble feel is taught to Miltary pilots world wide.