BoBII discussion thread

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Trumper

BoB11 is an old engine and worked on by volunteers for nothing so really can't be compared to a modern brand new program with a professional team of full time developers.

That depends..

IMHO it would not be fair to compare BoB II's graphics to CoD graphics..

But I think it is 'ok' to compare BoB II's AI and campaign to CoDs! Note I said 'ok' not 'fair'.

Why?

Because something happened years ago.. online game play.. Since than there has been more and more 'resources' (time & money) devoted to online play than offline play. Some big game makers have enough 'resources' to do both.. But as we all know flight sims have limited 'resources' realitive to other games.. Thus they have to focus on the market demands.. And the sad truth of that is more people care about online gameplay against other human pilots than offline AI and campaigns

I miss the games like SWOTL and RB where the offline campaign pulled you in and made you feel apart of what was going on.. But to be honest, if I had to choose between the two I would pick online play over offline play wrt flight sims. Note I said if I had to choose, that is based on me knowing flight sims makers have limited 'resources'. It would be great to have both, but clearly that is not the case

Thus long story short.. It is not fair to compare BoB II's AI and Offline to CoD for the reasons I noted above.. Which is not to say that I think BoB II's AI is better, just pointing out that it is not fair IMHO to compare a flight sim who focus is on OFFLINE play such that they didn't even include ONLINE play to CoD who's focus, like so many modern sims, is on ONLINE play

Just my 2 cents

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by furbs

i think it was Oleg himself who said his flight sims focus on offline players.

Well as the glass half empty crowd likes to point out.. Oleg said alot of things that have not come to be.. yet

But it really does not mater if he did say that, because the truth (nay FACT) of the mater is prior to ONLINE play.. Game makers had no choice but to put ALL of thier focus into OFFLINE play..

Where as today game makers have to SPLIT thier focus between OFFLINE and ONLINE play..

Which for flight sims means they have to SPLIT thier 'resorces' (time & money) to do BOTH..

And since the market demands ONLINE plany over OFFLINE play you can 'be sure' the spilt is not 50 50

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

Agree, professional developers creating a brand new program should do much better in much less time than a group of semi-trained volunteers.

Just to be crystal..

All the links I provided are realitive to the 2005 Shockwave Productions, Inc. (currently known as A2A simulaton) release of BoB II.. Not the work done by modders since that date

[furbs]

What is the split would you say ACE?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by furbs

What is the split would you say ACE?

Your guess is as good as mine..

But don't get hung up on the split number..

The point to take away from all this is we know there is a split.. How much it is not as important as knowing there is one..

Which brings us back to square one

Do you think it is fair to compare the AI and OFFLINE Campain of a game that only focuses on OFFLINE to a game that trys to do both OFFLINE and ONLINE?

Personally I think not..

Unless the comparison is to say.. See how much better CoD's AI and OFFLINE Campain could be if CoD dropped ONLINE support and only focuesed on OFFLINE play

But as I allready noted.. The market drives these calls more than we would like to admit.. And todays market is more interested in ONLINE gamming than OFFLINE.. It is too bad really.. Because I can remember the detail of the OFFLINE campains in Red Barron.. The way you would progress threw the war.. And made you feel like you were having an effect on events.. For example, if you did good.. An enmy ace would 'challange' you to a duel! As in meet me in grid such and such at high noon.. Stuff like that really made pulled you into what was going on.. Where as todays OFFLINE campains.. in most games.. Enh.. They don't really draw you in like that anymore IMHO.. I have not tried RoF offline yet, I hear it has alot of that kind of stuff going on.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

That depends..

IMHO it would not be fair to compare BoB II's graphics to CoD graphics..

But I think it is 'ok' to compare BoB II's AI and campaign to CoDs! Note I said 'ok' not 'fair'.

Why?

Because something happened years ago.. online game play.. Since than there has been more and more 'resources' (time & money) devoted to online play than offline play. Some big game makers have enough 'resources' to do both.. But as we all know flight sims have limited 'resources' realitive to other games.. Thus they have to focus on the market demands.. And the sad truth of that is more people care about online gameplay against other human pilots than offline AI and campaigns

I miss the games like SWOTL and RB where the offline campaign pulled you in and made you feel apart of what was going on.. But to be honest, if I had to choose between the two I would pick online play over offline play wrt flight sims. Note I said if I had to choose, that is based on me knowing flight sims makers have limited 'resources'. It would be great to have both, but clearly that is not the case

Thus long story short.. It is not fair to compare BoB II's AI and Offline to CoD for the reasons I noted above.. Which is not to say that I think BoB II's AI is better, just pointing out that it is not fair IMHO to compare a flight sim who focus is on OFFLINE play such that they didn't even include ONLINE play to CoD who's focus, like so many modern sims, is on ONLINE play

Just my 2 cents

Firstly, has any definitive research been done on the proportions of online to offline players for an established, successful flight-sim like il-2? I suspect the numbers would be close, with possibly even a majority for offline. I would also say that the online crowd are more easily visible and high-profile, but whether that means they are more numerous I don't know. As Furbs says, for the sake of CoD I would hope that there are at least as many playing offline (or temporarily inactive but interested in future developments) as are currently online. Also, beware the self-fulfilling prophecy of settling for a poor offline experience with no campaign, losing all those interested in offline play, then concluding that the numbers are all online and that is all that matters.

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

It is not fair to compare BoB II's AI and Offline to CoD for the reasons I noted above.. Which is not to say that I think BoB II's AI is better, just pointing out that it is not fair IMHO to compare a flight sim who focus is on OFFLINE play such that they didn't even include ONLINE play to CoD who's focus, like so many modern sims, is on ONLINE play

It's not about 'fairness' or even comparing the two games for that matter. You get so defensive about CoD. This isn't about saying game X is better than game Y. Here is the situation: CoD (fantastically wonderful as we all agree it is ) requires further development in several key areas. The question is what form should that development take? What sort of standard should we aim at? Someone suggests that a previous game did a good job in certain limited aspects of its development and suggests that if CoD was developed along similar lines in those specific areas it might be really good.

It's just logic. Answer these questions:

1. Is COD currently perfect?
2. If not, which aspects would you like to see improved?

It seems in your world that anyone answering 'no' to the first question gets labelled as one of the 'glass half empty' crowd.

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Your guess is as good as mine..

But don't get hung up on the split number..

The point to take away from all this is we know there is a split.. How much it is not as important as knowing there is one..

Which brings us back to square one

Do you think it is fair to compare the AI and OFFLINE Campain of a game that only focuses on OFFLINE to a game that trys to do both OFFLINE and ONLINE?

Personally I think not..

Unless the comparison is to say.. See how much better CoD's AI and OFFLINE Campain could be if CoD dropped ONLINE support and only focuesed on OFFLINE play

But as I allready noted.. The market drives these calls more than we would like to admit.. And todays market is more interested in ONLINE gamming than OFFLINE.. It is too bad really.. Because I can remember the detail of the OFFLINE campains in Red Barron.. The way you would progress threw the war.. And made you feel like you were having an effect on events.. For example, if you did good.. An enmy ace would 'challange' you to a duel! As in meet me in grid such and such at high noon.. Stuff like that really made pulled you into what was going on.. Where as todays OFFLINE campains.. in most games.. Enh.. They don't really draw you in like that anymore IMHO.. I have not tried RoF offline yet, I hear it has alot of that kind of stuff going on.

Why aren't they comparable? I am struggling to see why you believe a 6-7 year old game with a brilliant offline experience cannot be compared to a game released in 2011 which, as the developers expressed, would be the greatest sim in all departments: offline included. Up until release we were led to believe the AI would be something special: it would have it's own character. We were even told it would feel fear. In six years, technology comes a long way. BoB2 does have mutiplayer. It's just not a multiplayer game. There is nothing about CloD that means it can't rival Bob2, so your argument that the two are incomparable is negateable. It has no substance.

As others have said to, the origins of both sims are in no way similar. CloD is supported by paid developers. Bob2 is supported by unpaid community members, and has been for a very long time. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, offline games and online games are NOT mutually exclusive. They can happily exist together.

There is no reason to suggest that CloD can't equal BoB2. Even if we focus on BoB2's single-player missions, the developers had every opportunity to ensure that each mission they created was as close to historical events (of that particular day) as possible. They had every opportunity to make the AI perfect. They had every opporunity to ensure all the skins were correct. They had every opporunity to create a dynamic campaign, or to enable the game to run smoothly with large numbers of A/C, or to create an immersive comms system. The fact that they failed and that CloD's main selling point is the online experience does not automatically negate any comparisons to mainly offline games. No, no. In fact, the fact that it failed when it should have achieved makes the comparisons all the more successful. It gives CloD a benchmark to reach.

I can't see why you think the two aren't comparable. Your logic is illogical. In this instance, Oleg's advocation that offline is important ultimately shows that your argument is considerably weak.

Kendo is absolutely right. No one is saying that X is better than Y. We are saying that one is better in certain areas and that the other can look to improve on these departments. The history of the games makes no difference. At the end of the day, CloD should have a brilliant offline experience and it doesn't. Bob2 does and will contain my passion for the period. I would love CLoD to achieve, and I believe it can, and consequently I suggest it take a leaf out of BoB2's book.

don't bring online into this, I can't see why that had to be brought up. It's totally irrelevent to the argument: especially when the argument relates to a six year old game. Technology has come a long way in six years. BoB2 just chose to focus on offline gaming. It could have branched out online, but chose not to. It is as simple as that.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Why aren't they comparable?

Simple really..

It is not a fair comparison..

Because BoB II is an OFFLINE only game..

The point being one would 'expect' a game that puts all their resources into OFFLINE play (developing the AI and a campaign) to have better OFFLINE play than a game that has to SPLIT their resources to provide both OFFLINE and ONLINE capabilities

[fruitbat]

How about comparing CloD to il21946, a 10 year old game, where the offline is much much better?

I am led to belive that does online too.....

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

How about comparing CloD to il21946, a 10 year old game, where the offline is much much better?

I am led to belive that does online too.....

That would be fair IMHO..

And debatable!