Pony talk

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Madfish

During the late war Germany wouldn't even have been able to win if they had a couple of Eurofighters or Raptors or whatever. Since the pilots have basically been living zombies, most aces were dead, the material quality was low, fuel was low, training was almost impossible and the planes have been in bad shape.

If all 1400 or so me262 produced for the LW were actually operational with pilots, fuel and munitions readily available, all at the same time, the 8th air force would have been obliterated and allied armor flattened.

In reality I do not think they ever had more than 100 or so me262 operational on any given day.

[X32Wright]

It won't matter because most of the 'expertens' are dead by this time and you have nothing but 'nuggets' (beginners) flying. As you probably can tell in the game, fighting aces and experienced pilots are no walk in the park either.

Remember that Mosquitoes have killed Me-163s and Mustangs have killed Me-262s. The Me-262 however would run out of ammo and probably have engine problems on a sustained fight with a P-51.

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't see how the 262 would be able to get into protracted fights with the escorts, you're right. That would probably be reserved for prop-driven fighters.

However, if used in its intended role the 262 would not need to get in a sustained fight at all. Bypass the escorts, fly parallel to the bomber stream, turn into them in a pursuit curve, attack the bombers head on...rinse and repeat until you get damaged or run out of fuel/ammo.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

If all 1400 or so me262 produced for the LW were actually operational with pilots, fuel and munitions readily available, all at the same time, the 8th air force would have been obliterated and allied armor flattened.

In reality I do not think they ever had more than 100 or so me262 operational on any given day.

Just to put the 1400 into the proper context: In March 1945, the USAAF flew 146000 sorties against Germany. That is 4700 a day. 62000 of these were fighter sorties, that is 2000 a day.
Add to these the VVS and RAF, plus the various smaller air forces, and you'll have to realize that even if all Me 262's produced up to a certain point had been available at that point, it would not have made a significant difference to the outcome.
One can assume one devastating battle against the 8th air force, which would have been a pyrrhic victory for the LW. Nothing left to flatten the Allied armour.

[dduff442]

While the 262 was certainly the future, the P-51 had certain advantages also: range and endurance. They could concentrate anywhere they chose in massive numbers. Even by Feb 44, USAAF a/c could swarm in from the UK and the Med to a single area anywhere in Western Europe. The moral impact alone on viewers on the ground -- friendly or enemy -- must have been stupefying.

The 262 lacked endurance and, unlike later jets, absolutely had to keep high and fast when enemy a/c were around. It had neither the acceleration nor the manoeuvrability to tangle with prop planes.

The strangely mixed reviews the likes of the 262, He-162 and Me-163 got are partly the result of impossible conditions. They would have performed much better in allied hands. With numerical superiority, they could have performed many kinds of mission at very low risk. The Me-163 and He-162 were too dangerous for allied training and use, though.

The 262, if produced with high quality materials, was a fairly mature design and would have even made an impact in Normandy if a couple of hundred had been available. The kill ratios are misleading -- success was not possible when the enemy could afford to keep a couple of squadrons camped over the base all day long. Vulchers!

dduff

[Codex]

Originally Posted by JtD

Just to put the 1400 into the proper context: In March 1945, the USAAF flew 146000 sorties against Germany. That is 4700 a day. 62000 of these were fighter sorties, that is 2000 a day.
Add to these the VVS and RAF, plus the various smaller air forces, and you'll have to realize that even if all Me 262's produced up to a certain point had been available at that point, it would not have made a significant difference to the outcome.
One can assume one devastating battle against the 8th air force, which would have been a pyrrhic victory for the LW. Nothing left to flatten the Allied armour.

The point missing about the 262 was that Galland saw these aircraft as a means to kill bombers, Hitler wanted them to be bombers so there is a stark difference in tactical thinking. Obviously Hitler got his way and Germany lost. But if Galland had the 1400 or so aircraft ready and they were all configured for interception as Galland had wanted, the allied bomber squads would have not had the success they did in killing off Germany's production when they did, and I stress when they did. By D-Day I personally don't think Germany would have lasted even if they had best aircraft and pilots at their disposal, the numbers against them were just too great, but the 262 would have certainly either slowed or even stopped the bleeding of Germany's war production and prolonged the war.

[Codex]

Originally Posted by dduff442

...
The 262 lacked endurance and, unlike later jets, absolutely had to keep high and fast when enemy a/c were around. It had neither the acceleration nor the manoeuvrability to tangle with prop planes.

But the 262 weren't being used to tangle with the escorts, their primary role was to kill bombers using BnZ tactics. Almost all 262's that were shot down were lost during take-offs or landings.

With regards to endurance, that's one thing that LW didn't need to worry about, as the fight was now over their soil.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by Codex

But the 262 weren't being used to tangle with the escorts, their primary role was to kill bombers using BnZ tactics. Almost all 262's that were shot down were lost during take-offs or landings.

With regards to endurance, that's one thing that LW didn't need to worry about, as the fight was now over their soil.

There were also enough of them shot down by escorts in engagements with bombers. Yes, too few to count but it did happen. 262's engines were very sensitive (flammable) on sudden throttle changes, and also didn't take bullets very well.

If we're already talking what might have happened if it had happened - Germany might have had the 262 in Heinkel edition as early as '43 if they had the foresight what was to happen to them and who were they fighting with. They could also win the Battle of Atlantic with new XXI Type submarines which to be honest - didn't bring nothing else except different view on how a submarine should operate. It was the very same submarine technology they had at the start of the war. There are many 'ifs' here, the point is - it was all too late, too little. Many high ranked generals knew the war was lost way back in the beginning of '43. This is the very same reason why so many assassination attempts were made on Hitler.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Codex

The point missing about the 262 was that Galland saw these aircraft as a means to kill bombers, Hitler wanted them to be bombers so there is a stark difference in tactical thinking. Obviously Hitler got his way and Germany lost. But if Galland had the 1400 or so aircraft ready and they were all configured for interception as Galland had wanted, the allied bomber squads would have not had the success they did in killing off Germany's production when they did, and I stress when they did. By D-Day I personally don't think Germany would have lasted even if they had best aircraft and pilots at their disposal, the numbers against them were just too great, but the 262 would have certainly either slowed or even stopped the bleeding of Germany's war production and prolonged the war.

This is what Galland himself had to say in a 1994 interview:

Originally Posted by Adolf Galland 1994

http://www.acepilots.com/german/galland.html

The Me-262 would most certainly not have changed the final outcome of the war, for we had already lost completely, but it would have probably delayed the end, since the Normandy invasion on June 6, 1944, would probably not have taken place, at least not successfully if the 262 had been operational. I certainly think that just 300 jets flown daily by the best fighter pilots would have had a major impact on the course of the air war. This would have, of course, prolonged the war, so perhaps Hitler's misuse of this aircraft was not such a bad thing after all.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Codex

The point missing about the 262 was that Galland saw these aircraft as a means to kill bombers, Hitler wanted them to be bombers so there is a stark difference in tactical thinking. Obviously Hitler got his way and Germany lost. But if Galland had the 1400 or so aircraft ready and they were all configured for interception as Galland had wanted, the allied bomber squads would have not had the success they did in killing off Germany's production when they did, and I stress when they did. By D-Day I personally don't think Germany would have lasted even if they had best aircraft and pilots at their disposal, the numbers against them were just too great, but the 262 would have certainly either slowed or even stopped the bleeding of Germany's war production and prolonged the war.

Actually aside from a few key raids the bombing campaigns did little to halt German production. It's almost ironic that the best months of production for Germany were close to the end... in the months leading up to defeat. I don't have the sources readily available but any university library should have the details (that's where I got mine ). What the bombing campaigns did do was tie up valuable resources in defending against them. So I would speculate that even if the 262 was successful in dealing deadly blows to the 8th Air Force operations the Allies would still have won the long term battle as they were holding up resources that could have been used along the Eastern Front in particular.

I think a Luftwaffe victory in the skies over Germany would only serve to redraw the maps of Europe during the latter half of the 20th Century in favour of the Soviet Union.