4.12.2 de-bugging

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Yep, but what about the Wellington? They do fly with 1/3 (or even more) of their wing surface gone due to MG hits. They are not like cheese, they're like flying skeletons.

Keep in mind that those are graphical representations of damage, and don't necessarily correlate to actual damage. For example, maybe you hit the Wellington's wing with one bullet just enough to do some damage, and the graphical representation of that damage looks like you hit it with dozens of bullets. The 109's wing's damage is another good example of this: you hit it hard with a single machine gun bullet and you might get those two basketball-sized holes to appear that look like they could have only been caused by cannon shells.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

Keep in mind that those are graphical representations of damage, and don't necessarily correlate to actual damage.

That's one of my points. 'Cause it means that the graphical representation is disproportional to the actual damage. My other point is that the Wellington is nearly invulnerable to structural damage. I've never ever succeeded in bringing down a Wellington other way than by flaming its engines, no matter whether I used HMGs or cannons. Dunno whether it's realistic, hence my question.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by sniperton

That's one of my points. 'Cause it means that the graphical representation is disproportional to the actual damage. My other point is that the Wellington is nearly invulnerable to structural damage. I've never ever succeeded in bringing down a Wellington other way than by flaming its engines, no matter whether I used HMGs or cannons. Dunno whether it's realistic, hence my question.

Wellington's were known for their battle toughness...

The Wellington used a geodesic construction method, which had been devised by Barnes Wallis inspired by his work on airships, and had previously been used to build the single-engined Wellesley light bomber. The fuselage was built up from 1650 elements, consisting of aluminium alloy (duralumin) W-beams that were formed into a large framework. Wooden battens were screwed onto the aluminium, and these were covered with Irish linen, which, once treated with many layers of dope, formed the outer skin of the aircraft. The metal lattice gave the structure tremendous strength, because any one of the stringers could support some of the weight from even the opposite side of the aircraft. Blowing out one side's beams would still leave the aircraft as a whole intact; as a result, Wellingtons with huge areas of framework missing continued to return home when other types would not have survived; the dramatic effect was enhanced by the doped fabric skin burning off, leaving the naked frames exposed (see photo).

In one incident, a German Bf 110 night-fighter attacked a Wellington returning from an attack on Münster, Germany, causing a fire at the rear of the starboard engine. Co-pilot Sergeant James Allen Ward climbed out of the fuselage in flight, kicked holes in the doped fabric of the wing for foot and hand holds to reach the starboard engine and smothered the burning upper wing covering. He and the aircraft returned home safely, and Ward was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Wellington

The graphical representations work like this. There are 3 states of damage: 1) Undamaged 2) Light damage 3) Heavy damage

All of these states are done by the visual artist for the model. If the artist overdoes it a bit on any one of these it may make it look worse than it actually is. The damage states give you a clue as to how much damage you've done but not the full picture.

As always, it's best to do damage to vulnerable areas. Particularly on bombers you aim for fuel tanks, engines and the cockpit. You avoid firing on the structural elements as many bombers are fairly tough and aircraft like the B-29, Wellington, B-17 and others were well known for being able to absorb incredible punishment and still staying aloft.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

All of these states are done by the visual artist for the model. If the artist overdoes it a bit on any one of these it may make it look worse than it actually is.

This is also the reason that destroyed planes sometimes seem to have damage that should allow the plane to still fly. For example, many planes could still fly (sort of) with the outer third or quarter of one wing removed, but in IL2 they cannot.

Originally Posted by IceFire

As always, it's best to do damage to vulnerable areas. Particularly on bombers you aim for fuel tanks, engines and the cockpit.

And, if possible, try to attack a bit from above, below or to the side so you maximize target area and have a better chance of hitting vulnerable areas, rather than just chewing up the plane's tail or the trailing edge of its wing.

The exception is for head-on attacks where you want to try to align yourself perfectly with the oncoming enemy plane so you don't have to correct for deflection in the very limited time you have to shoot. Otherwise, when making a head-on, try to attack from slightly above and to the target plane's left side, so you have the best chance of hitting the pilot and the port side engines and fuel tanks.

If you go online, you can sometimes find field manuals which show a certain plane's weak spots. If that information isn't available, it's generally a good strategy to aim at the wing roots, since there will usually be a fuel tank there. Also, if you miss slightly, there will usually be a fuel tank or bomb bay in the plane's fuselage, right where the fuselage and the wings cross (typically, that's the plane's Center of Gravity).

Finally, give yourself a bit more lead than you expect when making high deflection shots against bombers. Most of the really vulnerable stuff (cockpit, engines, fuel tanks) is up front.

Hits to the rear fuselage are mostly a waste of ammo. About the only thing that's a really good target in the rear of the plane are the rear gunners. Take out the tail gunner or top gunner and if you choose your angle right you can get in close to deliver the coup de grace without getting zapped by the bomber's other guns.

[sniperton]

Thanks for the info! Anyway, admitting that my gunnery and attack skills are mediocre at best, you can see on the attached image that first I disabled the tail gunner, went closer (<150m), and attacked exactly those vulnerable parts you suggested (cockpit, wingroot, engines). I was flying a Tomahawk IIRC. Probably my attack was not steep enough to hit anything vital well inside the plane's structure, but I'm pretty sure that the engine cowlings (which remained intact) got the same amount of bullets as the inner wing area nearby.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Thanks for the info! Anyway, admitting that my gunnery and attack skills are mediocre at best, you can see on the attached image that first I disabled the tail gunner, went closer (<150m), and attacked exactly those vulnerable parts you suggested (cockpit, wingroot, engines). I was flying a Tomahawk IIRC. Probably my attack was not steep enough to hit anything vital well inside the plane's structure, but I'm pretty sure that the engine cowlings (which remained intact) got the same amount of bullets as the inner wing area nearby.

Looks like your bullets went all over the place. And If you really flew a Tomahawk, then it is not the best idea to attack from behind, Wellingtons and other tough planes,e. g. He-111, SM79 ... can soak up lots of non-cannon size bullets if they come from behind - but a few well placed bursts into the cockpit or engines do the trick.

Edit:
Just tried it myself, one long burst form ~200m and closing into the the Wellingtons right wing, and the inboard and outboard fuel tank burned, as well as right engine dead.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Thanks for the info! Anyway, admitting that my gunnery and attack skills are mediocre at best, you can see on the attached image that first I disabled the tail gunner, went closer (<150m), and attacked exactly those vulnerable parts you suggested (cockpit, wingroot, engines). I was flying a Tomahawk IIRC. Probably my attack was not steep enough to hit anything vital well inside the plane's structure, but I'm pretty sure that the engine cowlings (which remained intact) got the same amount of bullets as the inner wing area nearby.

It looks like heavy damage to the plane's fuselage and inner wings, but no concentrated hits on any vital part of the plane.

If you really want to know where your bullets go, and what effect they're having on your target, play using Arcade mode. To set it up, edit your conf.ini file so that Arcade=1.

Once it's set up, any bullet that hits its target will show as a big arrow stuck through the plane, and any cannon shell that hits will show a "star" of arrows. If you inflict serious damage on your target, you'll see a cartoon "thought bubble" over the plane when it suffers a crew hit or critical or fatal damage. It's a very good training aid to improve your deflection shooting.

[Pursuivant]

And now an actual bug report. It seems that the RPM gauge on the Tomahawk MkIIb is miscalibrated. When you throttle back the engine and the prop pitch, the needle goes "below zero" and hovers near the 18,000 rpm mark.

When you put the plane in a long dive with 100% prop pitch, such that you're above 730 kph and the plane is buffeting due to compression, engine RPM hover at just over 6,000 rpm.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Thanks for the info! Anyway, admitting that my gunnery and attack skills are mediocre at best, you can see on the attached image that first I disabled the tail gunner, went closer (<150m), and attacked exactly those vulnerable parts you suggested (cockpit, wingroot, engines). I was flying a Tomahawk IIRC. Probably my attack was not steep enough to hit anything vital well inside the plane's structure, but I'm pretty sure that the engine cowlings (which remained intact) got the same amount of bullets as the inner wing area nearby.

From your screen shots I see a lot of damage to both sides of the aircraft as well as a lot of damage across two different fuselage areas and the back elevators as well. To me it looks like you spread a lot of firepower across the entire aircraft... against something like the Wellington or even a Heinkel or Ju88 its not often going to be enough to cripple.

Pursuivant is right that coming in from an angle is the best approach. I prefer above because you are able to put fire from an angle into the fuel tanks and engines and you have speed to disengage and position for a second attack. Dead 6 (or right behind) is a bad place to be because of defensive fire and because you're wasting a lot of bullets on structure that doesn't matter as much.

With a P-40C (Tomahawk II) you also have somewhat limited firepower. A pair of .50cals plus four .30cals. The .30cals pretty much don't count against anything except the engines and fuel. The .50cals will do structural damage, however, you only have two of them which is enough weight of fire to matter against a fighter but not enough to matter against something as well constructed as a Wellington. With cannons you can be indiscriminate because a high explosive 20mm or especially a 37mm will blast whole areas of the plane and cause structural and system damage. With machine guns you want to aim for things that matter.

So try and come in from an angle (use deflection shooting), aim for fuel/engines/cockpit and concentrate fire in one area. Pour it on. All into the engine or into the wingroot. If you make more than one pass then put your shots into the same area.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Dead 6 (or right behind) is a bad place to be because of defensive fire and because you're wasting a lot of bullets on structure that doesn't matter as much.

It's especially bad vs. the Wellington because there's a power turret in the tail with twin guns and a very good field of fire.

If you do have to hang out behind a bomber and can't overtake them quickly (about 50-75 kph faster), try to hang out at 300-500 m and take "sniper" shots at one of the engine nacelles. Usually there will be a fuel tank behind or adjacent to the engine and you might get lucky and start a fire.

Ideally, you'll have your guns converged for your preferred firing distance before you take your sniper shots. This is particularly important for planes with wing-mounted guns, less so for planes with nose-mounted cannons or with guns in the wings which are mounted quite close to the fuselage.

If you have to get within 300 m, try to shift around after each shot you take and don't stay in one place (relative to the bombers gunners' point of view) for more than a second or so. Plan your shot at a vital part a second or so in advance as you jink around above and below the gunner's field of fire and make "snapshots" as your target comes into your sights.

Also, practice your gunnery. Try to challenge yourself by taking increasingly tricky high-speed, high deflection shots. Just set up an easy mission in the QMB, give yourself unlimited ammo and go.

If you're not used to how a particular plane's guns work, there is a program called "Sniper's Corners" which turns an Excel spreadsheet into a sort of gunnery calculator. Using it, you can get a sense of how much lead you need to give a target in different attack scenarios.

Originally Posted by IceFire

With a P-40C (Tomahawk II) you also have somewhat limited firepower.

More to the point, in IL2 the entire P-40/Hawk 87/Tomahawk/Kittyhawk series is very vulnerable to damage from the front. Just about any bullet in the nose is going to kill the engine and/or oil coolant system. Bullets that miss those systems WILL go through the windshield (where the armor glass isn't modeled) and will kill the pilot. If that doesn't happen, your control cables will get hit. I can't count the number of times I've quit a P-40 bomber intercept mission with the pilot dead, engine stopped and/or control cables severed.

If you can learn to live with its crummy high altitude performance and vicious spin recovery characteristics, the P-39/P-400 or P-63 are my bomber interceptors of choice. Even better, for some reason IL2 does a poor job of modeling hits to the guns in the P-39/P-400s nose, and the hits to the oil/coolant system take 20+ minutes to finally kill the engine, so you can take a lot of abuse and keep on blasting away. Your only risk is a pilot hit through the windscreen (again, bulletproof glass and armor plate between the cockpit and the nose guns not modeled).

But that's not an excuse to just hang out behind a bomber formation and soak up bullets. Practice your deflection shooting!