Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

In fact, you haven't corrected anything, just made a statement without any support. Which equals bullshit in any common sense interpretation. Actually, you were the one corrected for the wrong use of the "persistent" word. A wrong you don't seem to accept or even understand.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

are you sure?

Yes, I am sure. Why would I be less sure than you when stating that TrackIR has better resolution than Kinect? Where is the data to support that statement?

Let me tell you the actual data, as the person above stated, the resolution is equal, ie 640x480. Raw. Which kinda leads me to another serious thing: Why would NP post a RAW resolution on their site for TIR5 specs? The answer to that is the well known white-painted marketing: make public a true, but not useful, characteristic. Why would someone be interested in TIR5's RAW resolution? I am interested in TIR output/computed resolution, which might even be 32x24 if you ask me, as long as NP doesn't make any statement regarding this.

So, M$'s Kinectic is using a 320x240 out resolution.. What output resolution is using TIR5? None on NP's site, so, allow me, until NP will make that public, to consider Kinectic's resolution bigger.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Have you considered including labour costs, packaging and manufacturing overheads? and TIR is available in retail outlets as well.

Yes, I have considered them. They were embedded into the hardware (manufacture) price of 10-15 euros. Retail outlets ask for a bigger % from the selling cost than online sellers, yet most of the NP's sells are made via the online stores, so that can be safely ignored.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

that's you making a false connection there... so what of the charge for video cards? and why no cries of duopopoly?

That is not me making a false connection, but you eating bullexcrements.

I was talking about a fair price, and you said why not complain about videocards, then you turned it into a monopoly complain, which was actually not. that monopoly complain was above.

And just for you to learn, there's no duopoly (which actually is a special case of oligopoly) on the videocard market, you're confusing the production of videocard chipsets with videocards manufacturers. And basic economic knowledge would have told you that an oligopoly is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the players are not following an agreed (price) policy and a correct market competition exists between them.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

so... dropping support for AGP, gameport, and basically p/2 and floppy drives is greed?

those are classic examples of hardware deprecated. There is a BIG difference bewteen the way an AGp vs PCIx hardware are working. Can you tell me why TIR3 hardware is considered deprecated, and sodiferent thant the hardware from TRI4 or 5 to not be supported anymore?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

don't falsely claim monopoly, when there isn't and you'll have no need for your aggressive defence when corrected

It's obvious you have no common sense and are not a reasonable person to talk with. Even more, your fanaticism is suspect of direct NP influence.

I have nothing more to say or talk to you anymore, please feel free to consider this discussion with you ended and yourself ignored.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

In fact, you haven't corrected anything, just made a statement without any support. Which equals bullshit in any common sense interpretation. Actually, you were the one corrected for the wrong use of the "persistent" word. A wrong you don't seem to accept or even understand.

err, if you go back and read through, you'll find you're wrong

Originally Posted by adonys

Yes, I am sure. Why would I be less sure than you when stating that TrackIR has better resolution than Kinect? Where is the data to support that statement?

where did I say that?

Originally Posted by adonys

Let me tell you the actual data, as the person above stated, the resolution is equal, ie 640x40. Raw. Which kinda leads me to another serious thing: Why would NP post a RAW resolution on their site for TIR5 specs? The answer to that is the well known white-painted marketing: make public a true, but not useful, characteristic. Why would someone be interested in TIR5's RAW resolution? I am interested in TIR output/computed resolution, which might even be 32x24 if you ask me, as long as NP doesn't make any statement regarding this.

Does Kinect publish that? and I think you mean 480, not 40

Originally Posted by adonys

So, M$'s Kinectic is using a 320x240 out resolution.. What output resolution is using TIR5? None on NP's site, so, allow me, until NP will make that public, to consider Kinectic's resolution bigger.

and that is important, because _ _ _ _ _ ?

Originally Posted by adonys

Yes, I have considered them. They were embedded into the hardware (manufacture) price of 10-15 euros.

you may have underestimated, but that's not uncommon

Originally Posted by adonys

Retail outlets ask for a bigger % from the selling cost than online sellers, yet most of the NP's sells are made via the online stores, so that can be safely ignored.

agreed... ignore it

Originally Posted by adonys

That is not me making a false connection, but you eating bullexcrements.

same situation, different players and you try to ignore one in favour of the other

Originally Posted by adonys

I was talking about a fair price,

see the above

Originally Posted by adonys

and you said why not complain about videocards, then you turned it into a monopoly complain, which was actually not.

incorrect... I mentioned duopoly

Originally Posted by adonys

that monopoly complain was above.

yours and corrected

Originally Posted by adonys

And just for you to learn, there's no duopoly (which actually is a special case of oligopoly) on the videocard market, you're confusing the production of videocard chipsets with videocards manufacturers. And basic economic knowledge would have told you that an oligopoly is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the players are not following an agreed (price) policy and a correct market competition exists between them.

manufacturers get the chips from which of two major manufacturers?

Originally Posted by adonys

those are classic examples of hardware deprecated. There is a BIG difference bewteen the way an AGp vs PCIx hardware are working. Can you tell me why TIR3 hardware is considered deprecated, and sodiferent thant the hardware from TRI4 or 5 to not be supported anymore?

the equivalents of speed, amount ofdata transfer... perhaps? same as AGP/ PCIx

Originally Posted by adonys

It's obvious you have no common sense and are not a reasonable person to talk with. Even more, your fanaticism is suspect of direct NP influence.

and what has that got to do with the thread?

Originally Posted by adonys

I have nothing more to say or talk to you anymore, please feel free to consider this discussion with you ended and yourself ignored.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that..




let me also ask; does the xbox kinnect connect with earlier xboxes?

[swiss]

Originally Posted by adonys

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Your employer should pay you in percentage instead of dollars.

In fact I think the hardware of TIR is about $10 including the cap.
But there is still marketing, development(salaries), rent for office/warehouse and production facility setup - your supplier doesn't make the molds for free, you are aware of that, right?


Let's do some calculations on numbers I have and a good bunch of guessing:

Judging by serial numbers of Tir 5, they sold at least 30k units in 09/10.
I got serial 120xxx and I read about 160xxx.

Now let's look at the euro reseller prices:
€145, minus tax €116.
Margin: Your 20% are wrong for sure, that's nowhere enough unless it's a huge amount. A reseller takes 30-40, specially if it's a unit with low sales numbers. NP can probably wholesale sell it for 60, maybe 70 euros.

USA: best guess $70-80


Reseller vs NP e-shop: Judging by the members on NP forum, I would say 70% bought from a reseller.


Units USA vs rest the world: I have no numbers, so lets merge $ and € prices and take (high) $80 as an average reseller price.


70% go into wholesale @ $80= 21k*$80= $1.6mil
30% direct= 10k*150= $1.5mil

3 millions - wow, to pay all the crap I listed at the beginning?
But wait: That is for 2 years, so we're down to 1.5/y.
1.5mil equals a shop with 3 to 4 employees...
Even better: Cut that in half, because it's sooooo overpriced.

In case anyone has additional info, like higher or lower serials, proof of margins or the like, please post here.

[robtek]

Swiss, thats one of the better posts here !!!

[adonys]

well, the math is only partially correct. because:

- a serial number of 160xxx rather leads towards a 160k units produced, not just 30k.
- even at 30k, with 1.5 mils a year and 5 employees paid at let's say 3k a month (which is a big wedge) will results in 5x3x2x12 (employees, wedge, taxes, months) = 360k a year. add another 300k for hardware costs (10x30k) and you'll get expenses of around 660k. let's throw another 300k for the other expenses (rent and so on, even if is more than three times what should be spent on for these), and you'll get 960k from 1500k. a profit of more than 50%, which is HUGE.

now, considering NP is not only doing TrackIR, the costs should be even less.

And if we'll actually consider the 160k units produced and at least 140k sold (I'm sure they are not manufacturing them all at once, but in batches accordingly to demand), then we are looking at other summs entirely.

Nothing of this change the fact that TrackIR is nothing more than a sort of performant camera, hardware wise, and asking 150 euro for that, is WAY too much.

[albx]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, the math is only partially correct. because:

- a serial number of 160xxx rather leads towards a 160k units produced, not just 30k.
- even at 30k, with 1.5 mils a year and 5 employees paid at let's say 3k a month (which is a big wedge) will results in 5x3x2x12 (employees, wedge, taxes, months) = 360k a year. add another 300k for hardware costs (10x30k) and you'll get expenses of around 660k. let's throw another 300k for the other expenses (rent and so on, even if is more than three times what should be spent on for these), and you'll get 960k from 1500k. a profit of more than 50%, which is HUGE.

now, considering NP is not only doing TrackIR, the costs should be even less.

And if we'll actually consider the 160k units produced and at least 140k sold (I'm sure they are not manufacturing them all at once, but in batches accordingly to demand), then we are looking at other summs entirely.

Nothing of this change the fact that TrackIR is nothing more than a sort of performant camera, hardware wise, and asking 150 euro for that, is WAY too much.

swiss was probably referring at his serial number started with 120xxx bought a couple of years ago probably? now it is about 160xxx so 160k-120k = 40k/2 = 20k units x year that is what swiss said (about 30k for 2 years) am I right?

[adonys]

no one will use the same serial spanning across different iterations of the same product. is more probable that the serial is reset with each new version (see Thrustmaster's Warthog for example).

and even so, at 30k (which should actually be almost 40k), doesn't change the 50% profit.

and even more, no matter the calculations we are doing in here, the product is WAY overpriced for a camera hardware category.

would you pay double for a fork just because the business producing it can't be productive enough to make it at the normal price it should?

I see lots of webcams sold all around the net or store sellers, at prices starting with 10 euro. from there, to 150 euro it is a looooooong way, way too long for my tastes.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, the math is only partially correct. because:

- a serial number of 160xxx rather leads towards a 160k units produced, not just 30k.
- even at 30k, with 1.5 mils a year and 5 employees paid at let's say 3k a month (which is a big wedge) will results in 5x3x2x12 (employees, wedge, taxes, months) = 360k a year. add another 300k for hardware costs (10x30k) and you'll get expenses of around 660k. let's throw another 300k for the other expenses (rent and so on, even if is more than three times what should be spent on for these), and you'll get 960k from 1500k. a profit of more than 50%, which is HUGE.

Again, measuring profit only percent per unit is bullshit - you have to look at the actual numbers. And costs.
A software developer takes over 100k a year, if he doesn't he works at the wrong place.
What kind of job should that be 3k? Cleaning the warehouse?
Btw:
Have you ever run a shop?
I did.

Serial numbers: You are aware they can start wherever they like? The can start with a 10digit number if they feel like it.
That's why I asked fort higher or lower numbers, for T5 only.

edit: To alb: exactly

[robtek]

Originally Posted by adonys

.....and even more, no matter the calculations we are doing in here, the product is WAY overpriced for a camera hardware category.

would you pay double for a fork just because the business producing it can't be productive enough to make it at the normal price it should?

I see lots of webcams sold all around the net or store sellers, at prices starting with 10 euro. from there, to 150 euro it is a looooooong way, way too long for my tastes.

adonys, 150 IS the NORMAL price for a complete plug'n play headtracking solution!

You are comparing a Buggy-Kit complete, ready to assemble, based on a VW Beetle (the original) with a brand-new Mercedes 280SE fresh from the factory.

[adonys]

Maybe in your world, not in mine. But what do I know?

I've put above a lot of reasoning, but you seem to not understand or ignore it. The simple fact that M$, which is by definitiona the mother of all greedy corporations, asks only 150 for a device which is far ahead in everything (hardware, software, characteristics, capabilities, utility and usage) compared with TrackIR should make you wonder.. but no, you seem to be obsure to common sense and reasoning.

I guess, after all, that's the reason we still have to live with overpriced devices.. because of attitudes like yours..