Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[Wolf_Rider]

is there game support yet? do you want to see it in CoD next month? will you not buy, if it isn't included?

oh... TIR is also some unique hardware unit which can do what a cheap webcam can't

[albx]

Originally Posted by CharveL

I would argue that I do, in fact, understand the "Kinetic-like" solutions better than you likely do. It takes a lot more processing power to figure out tracking points on a face or body than it does for 3 solid dots, and even more still to do so with any accuracy. I'm not saying it isn't possible just that I'm very skeptical for the first generation of these devices to be able to even come close to competing with TIR for the purpose of tracking head movement.

I do think this is the direction we're going though and it will be a good solution. Just not yet.

probably you didn't understand that the process is done by the device and not by the pc?

[adonys]

Did you guys seen what the people already did with the hacked Kinect all around the net? Please, have a look in here. Think what it will be done once the developer SDK will be let out of the door by M$.

Just have a look at the latest demo, the KinVi: A Kinect-Enabled Virtual Interface for Windows 7 Control.

I do not hate NP. But I have no respect for a firm which ask much more money for a product than it should, only because they have a monopolistic position. Which means the first occasion will arise to dump NP and go for another product, I will grab it without looking back or ever caring about NP.

Kinect has 3 cameras in it, and a LOT more plastic and internal hardware components than NP. If it also has some processors to do all the movement recognition internally, then even so much more, than NP's TrackIR. Yet, they have roughly the same price. Do you want to pick up a bet with me, regarding how much the cost for a NP TrackIR device will be lowered, once M$'s Kinect will put out the drivers for PC? Only then, you will actually see the true price of that product, but unfortunately, it will be too late. Even if NP will be forced to do it to survive competition, I won't but anything from them as soon as another (and better as it already is) product is out, even if much more expensive. I have money and I want to pay, I just don't want to be taken as a fool or enforced. All I just want is to be asked for a fair price.

Make no mistake, Kinect is the way user-computer interaction and control will be in the future. TrackIR, mouse's and keyboards have to go to computer history's recycle bin, and will do it, sooner than you'd think.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

Did you guys seen what the people already did with the hacked Kinect all around the net? Please, have a look in here. Think what it will be done once the developer SDK will be let out of the door by M$.

Just have a look at the latest demo, the KinVi: A Kinect-Enabled Virtual Interface for Windows 7 Control.

It looks to be a great gadget...


[QUOTE=adonys;227326]

I do not hate NP. But I have no respect for a firm which ask much more money for a product than it should, only because they have a monopolistic position. Which means the first occasion will arise to dump NP and go for another product, I will grab it without looking back or caring about NP.

[/QUOTE}



It has been proven there is no NP monopoly, so why persist in this?

Originally Posted by adonys

Kinect has 3 cameras in it, and a LOT more plastic and internal hardware components than NP. If it also has some processors to do all the movement recognition internally, then even so much more, than NP's TrackIR. Yet, they have roughly the same price.

Given, it is a completely different product and slightly different qualities such as resolution (iiuc)

Originally Posted by adonys

Do you want to pick up a bet with me, regarding how much the cost for a NP TrackIR device will be lowered, once M$'s Kinect will put out the drivers for PC?

quite possibly

Originally Posted by adonys

Only then, you will actually see the true price of that product, but unfortunately, it will be too late.

How do you determine the "true price" of any product?

Originally Posted by adonys

Even if NP will be forced to do it to survive competition,

Perhaps, perhaps not, though time will tell

Originally Posted by adonys

I won't but anything from them as soon as another (and better as it already is) product is out, even if much more expensive. I have money and I want to pay, I just don't want to be takes as a fool or enforced. All I just want is to be asked for a fair price.

all that is your perogative, but let me ask; do you also whinge about the charge for video cards?

Originally Posted by adonys

Make no mistake, Kinect is the way user-computer interaction and control will be in the future. TrackIR, mouse's and keyboards have to go to computer history's recycle bin, and will do it, sooner than you'd think.

undoubtedly, but some here got upset because support stopped for "old" products.

[sigur_ros]

Ubi/Oleg might not talk but others do, recently Miner Wars developer considering TrackIR support:

"The good thing about TrackIR is its Standardized so people will know it will work with there hardware with out any tweaking. Also the product is very sound and high quality, you may not like TrackIR for w/e reason but it is an industry standard and most likely will be going with it, we may support others in the future only time will tell." http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=487

Industry standard is as good as monopoly.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

It has been proven there is no NP monopoly, so why persist in this?

I haven't seen any proof you're talking about. And have you seen me ever before saying this, to talk about me persisting in this?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Given, it is a completely different product and slightly different qualities such as resolution (iiuc)

You are right, the resolution is much better in M$'s Kinect.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

How do you determine the "true price" of any product?

Simply: by estimating the costs of the hardware incorporated in that product, deducting it from the selling price to obtain the added value cost, and comparing the added value cost with that of other similar products.

Regarding the above comparison, the hardware from M$'s Kinect is MUCH more expensive than the one from NP's TrackIR, and the same for the research and software needed for those two products. With the selling price being the same, it's obvious that NP's TrackIR is MUCH overpriced.

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

all that is your perogative, but let me ask; do you also whinge about the charge for video cards?

Aaa.. you are serious about comparing a video card's research, hardware and software costs with that of a head-tracking device like TrackIR? Maybe if compared with Kinect.. but with TrakIR?!! You must be joking, or playing stupid, better make sure you won't remain like that after..

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

undoubtedly, but some here got upset because support stopped for "old" products.

Stopping support for "old" products is an indicator of economic greed, if that product is not hardware deprecated. Which is the case in here, as at least TrackIR's 3 hardware is fine enough (and the device itself not so old in usage-years).

PS: Please do not try to impose your bullying attitude you've displyed on this thread towards me, I'll have none of it. Thank you!

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

I haven't seen any proof you're talking about. And have you seen me ever before saying this, to talk about me persisting in this?

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

Originally Posted by adonys

You are right, the resolution is much better in M$'s Kinect.

are you sure?

Originally Posted by adonys

Simply: by estimating the costs of the hardware incorporated in that product, deducting it from the selling price to obtain the added value cost, and comparing the added value cost with that of other similar products.

Regarding the above comparison, the hardware from M$'s Kinect is MUCH more expensive than the one from NP's TrackIR, and the same for the research and software needed for those two products. With the selling price being the same, it's obvious that NP's TrackIR is MUCH overpriced.

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Have you considered including labour costs, packaging and manufacturing overheads? and TIR is available in retail outlets as well.

Originally Posted by adonys

Aaa.. you are serious about comparing a video card's research, hardware and software costs with that of a head-tracking device like TrackIR? Maybe if compared with Kinect.. but with TrakIR?!! You must be joking, or playing stupid, better make sure you won't remain like that after..

that's you making a false connection there... so what of the charge for video cards? and why no cries of duopopoly?

Originally Posted by adonys

Stopping support for "old" products is an indicator of economic greed, if that product is not hardware deprecated. Which is the case in here, as at least TrackIR's 3 hardware is fine enough (and the device itself not so old in usage-years).

so... dropping support for AGP, gameport, and basically p/2 and floppy drives is greed?

Originally Posted by adonys

PS: Please do not try to impose your bullying attitude you've displyed on this thread towards me, I'll have none of it. Thank you!

don't falsely claim monopoly, when there isn't and you'll have no need for your aggressive defence when corrected



*Edit

Originally Posted by sigur_ros

Ubi/Oleg might not talk but others do, recently Miner Wars developer considering TrackIR support:

"The good thing about TrackIR is its Standardized so people will know it will work with there hardware with out any tweaking. Also the product is very sound and high quality, you may not like TrackIR for w/e reason but it is an industry standard and most likely will be going with it, we may support others in the future only time will tell." http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=487

Industry standard is as good as monopoly.

give it another go, son (read down a few posts)

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

How about instead of telling people to read the thread you go back and quote this "proof"? If it is simply a post of you saying "no it isn't" then that doesn't count. You've tried this a couple of times in this (and the other) thread and it isn't really fooling anybody.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

are you sure?

80% of NPs TrackIR products (1-4) have a lower resolution than Kinect. TrackIR 5 has an identical resolution to Kinect.

I was going to drop it earlier as clearly you can't be reasoned with but your persistance of attacking Freetrack in these threads as well as a google search showing me this isn't the only forum you have done it on leads me to agree with some others conclusion that you are in fact a Natural Point employee.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by vicinity

How about instead of telling people to read the thread you go back and quote this "proof"? If it is simply a post of you saying "no it isn't" then that doesn't count. You've tried this a couple of times in this (and the other) thread and it isn't really fooling anybody.

How about you go back and read the thread through, instead?
Its not meant to "fool" anyone, it is meant as do yourself a favour and catch up... otherwise things really would be going around in circles, complete with quotes from pages ago. Then the cries of "spamming" would start, eh

Originally Posted by vicinity

80% of NPs TrackIR products (1-4) have a lower resolution than Kinect. TrackIR 5 has an identical resolution to Kinect.

thanks

Originally Posted by vicinity

I was going to drop it earlier as clearly you can't be reasoned with but your persistance of attacking Freetrack in these threads as well as a google search showing me this isn't the only forum you have done it on leads me to agree with some others conclusion that you are in fact a Natural Point employee.

reasoning is easy... just come to the party with honest discussion. Now just because you feel a hack should be allowed and someone else feels a hack shouldn't be allowed, makes for a difference of opinion... I'm sorry you don't like a different opinion to yours, is this where things are going to get narsty? and which forums do you mean there?

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

How about you go back and read the thread through, instead?

I'll tell you again, I have! What would be the point in me looking through a thread again for something that doesn't exist?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

reasoning is easy... just come to the party with honest discussion. Now just because you feel a hack should be allowed and someone else feels a hack shouldn't be allowed, makes for a difference of opinion... I'm sorry you don't like a different opinion to yours, is this where things are going to get narsty? and which forums do you mean there?

See that's the thing, it's your opinion that it's a hack. You've made your feelings quite clear yet every time someone comes in to show their support for the inclusion of FT you repeat them.

I don't mind the opinions of others, and I don't expect to be able to change them. What I mind is people stating their opinion as fact without backing those opinions up and circular arguements repeacted to try and force your opinion onto others. This is what is happening imo and the reason i've let myself get sucked back into this topic.

I have no intention for things to get nasty so don't worry about that. If you can't remember where, try a google search for wolf rider and freetrack. I suppose there is a possibility it isn't you.