4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

Was it taken out of lend-lease aircraft, either on arrival or before, or is it just bogus that Forgotten Battles Hurricanes don't have it?

The Hurricanes Mk I supplied to Finland in 1939 might have been early production versions that weren't fitted with armor glass, but I'm not sure. The Finnish experts on this forum would probably know, however.

But, even if the armor glass was never fitted, or was stripped for export, it makes sense that the Finns would have retrofitted it - possibly using German stocks - after 1941.

Since the Hurricane MkII series planes were (mostly) Ex-RAF stocks it makes no sense that their armor should be stripped before they were exported. Certainly, the armor and guns would have been left in the Hurricanes flown by the RAF in the USSR and then left for the Soviets once the RAF pulled out. But, again, I don't know for certain.

But, in fairness to IL2, I might be bitching about a "problem" that's actually realistic. Armor glass of the WW2-era period wasn't nearly as strong as it is today, so perhaps it's realistic that a rifle-caliber ball (not Armor-Piercing) bullet could penetrate it 50-100 mm of glass at 100 meters or more. Certainly, a Armor-Piercing 0.30 caliber/7.62 mm MG bullet could easily penetrate that amount of glass about 200-300 m.

Add the 300-500 km/h of airspeed for a pursuing fighter to the basic bullet velocity of about 900 m/s, and penetration is improved even further.

[Jami]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The Hurricanes Mk I supplied to Finland in 1939 might have been early production versions that weren't fitted with armor glass, but I'm not sure. The Finnish experts on this forum would probably know, however.

Well, I'm not an expert but I have some photos I took a couple of years ago in Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo (The Aviation Museum of Central Finland). I had an opportunuty to have a look at a Hurricane Mk I which was under restoration. This fighter was delivered to Finland in 7th of March 1940 and it is the only one which is still remaining. You'll find two pictures from these links:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/qzljpkh66z7l0jc/HC452.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/vu404m...e6/HC452_a.jpg

It seems to me that there is an armor glass fitted, but I'm not sure. It's a pity that I didn't take a closer look at the cockpit glasses when visiting there.

And here is a link to the museum's virtual pages:

http://www.airforcemuseum.fi/flash.asp?file=1

[ElAurens]

Jami, that aircraft most definitely has armor glass.

Great photos, thanks for posting them.

[Pursuivant]

Most distinctly armor glass, same as was fitted on RAF fighters, maybe about 3" (~75 mm).

Thanks, Jami!

[Pursuivant]

Since I'm hating on the Hurricane series (by misusing the poor things by doing really stupid things with them, like hanging out behind massed bombers at 50-100 m), I've discovered a few other bugs.

It appears that the armor that surrounded the reserve fuel tank (the one ahead of the cockpit, behind the engine) and the firewall isn't modeled, or else are modeled in a way such that the armor isn't flush with the fuselage.

The effect is that rifle caliber bullets penetrating from dead ahead, penetrating the fuselage just behind the engine, penetrate the engine firewall and the reserve fuel tank (probably empty since I was flying with 50% fuel) to seriously wound the pilot.

The problem is that there should be about 1/4" (6 mm) of armor plate over the top half of the firewall, plus at least four layers of aluminum (2 for the firewall, 2 for the tank) and possibly more layers of armor that surround the reserve fuel tank that should slow down or stop even an AP 7.62 mm bullet fired from 100+ meters.

Cutaway view that shows what I'm talking about here (assuming bullets penetrate about 25-50 cm ahead of the filler cap and penetrate through the instrument panel):

http://references.charlyecho.com/Avi...icanecut-1.jpg

This website gives really nice illustrations of what the armor and firewall look like and how they should be mounted:

http://www.jneaircraft.com/am274/2008-2/

As another minor issue, it appears that while hits to the leading edge of the inboard wing will puncture the oil tank mounted there, the black smoke "oil leak" effect only emerges from just behind the oil cooler on the plane's belly.

It also seems to be impossible to get a coolant leak effect (white "smoke"), despite the fact that the coolant radiator and oil radiator seem to have shared the same housing.

[Pursuivant]

Looking into the whole Hurricane armor plate thing, it appears that at least one Hurricane MkX (Canadian built Mk IIb with U.S.-made Packard Merlin engine) with 12 guns, was supplied to the USSR with armor glass. The mounting is visible here, although the armor glass is missing:

http://www.jneaircraft.com/am274/artifacts/

This particular plane has a fascinating history and models several Hurricane variants not available in IL2.

First, it was a Hurricane MkIIa originally fitted with 12 0.303 caliber guns.

Second, once the Soviets got it, they removed the British guns and replaced them with 2 ShVAK-20 mm cannons and two-UBT-12.7 mm MG in the wings, with ejection ports for the 0.303 guns faired over and new ejection ports and chutes fitted for the new guns.

Further pictures show that it was fitted with Soviet wooden propellor blades.

http://www.jneaircraft.com/am274/history/

As you scroll through this web site, you'll notice several places where bullets punched through armor - one through the rear bulkhead to wound the pilot, another where a bullet missed the pilot and the reserve fuel tank bulkheads and then punched through the firewall (missing the armor plate) to hit the engine.

Since the plane that shot down AM274 was probably a Fw-190A armed with MG 17 (7.62 mm) and 20mm cannons, it's proof that rifle caliber bullets could sometimes punch through armor plate if fired at sufficiently close distance - and if they were AP rounds. So, the armor on the Hurricane series didn't make it invincible, but it helped.

[IceFire]

FYI: Aside from maybe some details ... we have this variant of the Hurricane. It's the Mark II Field Mod. and it has the ShVAK and UBK machine guns in the wings. It's quite potent actually.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

FYI: Aside from maybe some details ... we have this variant of the Hurricane. It's the Mark II Field Mod. and it has the ShVAK and UBK machine guns in the wings. It's quite potent actually.

I thought that model also had a Soviet inline engine rather than the RR Merlin, but I could be confusing it with the P-40 field mod.

I was definitely wrong about the MkII with 12 guns not being modeled in the game. It is, although four of the guns are in the outboard wings (where I didn't notice them initially).

For the Hurricane series, the cockpit armor glass appears to be modeled in the cockpit, but not in the external view. I have no idea if it's actually modeled in the DM

I strongly suspect that the armored portions of the fuel tanks and firewall aren't modeled. Either that, or all 7.62 mm bullets fired by German and Japanese bombers are modeled as being AP rather than ball.

As simple error in calculating penetration values by 7.62 mm/0.30/0.303 ball bullets, or the assumption that all bullets of that caliber are AP might go a long way to explaining why bomber gunners are so effective.

[Jami]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Either that, or all 7.62 mm bullets fired by German and Japanese bombers are modeled as being AP rather than ball.
As simple error in calculating penetration values by 7.62 mm/0.30/0.303 ball bullets, or the assumption that all bullets of that caliber are AP might go a long way to explaining why bomber gunners are so effective.

That concerns all Russian bombers and U-2/R-5 as well.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I thought that model also had a Soviet inline engine rather than the RR Merlin, but I could be confusing it with the P-40 field mod.

Confused with the P-40 Field Mod which uses a Klimov VK-105 off of a Yak or LaGG series. The Hurricane II Field Mod. still features a Merlin engine but with the different armament.