Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[CharveL]

As a long-time beta tester with NP I just wanted to raise a couple points with the caveat that, despite what might seem like a conflict of interest, I think free tracking alternatives are a great thing because not everyone can afford a TIR.

My personal experience with the NP guys is they are a really dedicated group of innovators in a smaller company that have managed to carve out a niche for themselves by creating a product that improves our simming experience. From what I've seen they are always willing to help their customers personally and often beyond what's called for, and seems a bit unfair when they are made out to be villains simply for protecting their work. Either way, that's for anyone to make their own opinion based on their own experience.

Anyway, I think it comes down to what works best for you considering the tradeoffs. FT has the benefit of being less expensive or even free if you already have a webcam and don't mind fashioning your own clip/reflector system. It's a great way to introduce yourself to head-tracking and see the benefits it provides for immersion!

Obviously the TIR gives the benefit of a more comprehensive and intuitive setup being specifically designed and supported by developers for seamless integration. The software gives better control over all axes and key-binding options, not to mention auto-detection of whatever game/sim you start which also adds to convenience, although perhaps minor for some.

The other factor to keep in mind is that the hardware itself relieves the CPU from much of the heavy lifting, providing up to 120hz refresh rate depending on the model, which improves your apparant in-game framerate considerably from the 24fps - 30fps (give or take) of your webcam. On a CPU intensive sim like CoD you need all the spare cycles you can get. With that said, some people can't tell the difference between a framerate of 20fps and 60fps so YMMV.

NP did all the legwork to make headtracking possible including wooing developers into adding the necessary hooks into their software, otherwise there would be no Freetrack, so I don't exactly blame them for not wanting to let others ride off of their work. On the other hand, if developers will support FT using FT's hooks then power to them and everybody is happy.

[TheGrunch]

You can achieve much the same CPU-offloading effect with a $30 Wiimote, to be fair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

TIR is very good, it's just becoming easier and easier to duplicate its functionality for a fraction of the cost. FaceAPI is another example of a piece of software that could do this very cheaply (not so cheaply for developers, however) using a $30 webcam. The only real caveat is that ideally the camera must capture at a high fps, not necessarily a high resolution, so a Playstation Eye or EyeToy camera is an ideal choice (320x240 @ 120 fps).

[MadBlaster]

Johnny Chung Lee rocks. At ~3:50 when he puts on those glasses, gives a quick "check this out" glance and then does the bop and weave...that just makes me LOL!

[LoBiSoMeM]

Originally Posted by CharveL

As a long-time beta tester with NP I just wanted to raise a couple points with the caveat that, despite what might seem like a conflict of interest, I think free tracking alternatives are a great thing because not everyone can afford a TIR.

My personal experience with the NP guys is they are a really dedicated group of innovators in a smaller company that have managed to carve out a niche for themselves by creating a product that improves our simming experience. From what I've seen they are always willing to help their customers personally and often beyond what's called for, and seems a bit unfair when they are made out to be villains simply for protecting their work. Either way, that's for anyone to make their own opinion based on their own experience.

Anyway, I think it comes down to what works best for you considering the tradeoffs. FT has the benefit of being less expensive or even free if you already have a webcam and don't mind fashioning your own clip/reflector system. It's a great way to introduce yourself to head-tracking and see the benefits it provides for immersion!

Obviously the TIR gives the benefit of a more comprehensive and intuitive setup being specifically designed and supported by developers for seamless integration. The software gives better control over all axes and key-binding options, not to mention auto-detection of whatever game/sim you start which also adds to convenience, although perhaps minor for some.

The other factor to keep in mind is that the hardware itself relieves the CPU from much of the heavy lifting, providing up to 120hz refresh rate depending on the model, which improves your apparant in-game framerate considerably from the 24fps - 30fps (give or take) of your webcam. On a CPU intensive sim like CoD you need all the spare cycles you can get. With that said, some people can't tell the difference between a framerate of 20fps and 60fps so YMMV.

NP did all the legwork to make headtracking possible including wooing developers into adding the necessary hooks into their software, otherwise there would be no Freetrack, so I don't exactly blame them for not wanting to let others ride off of their work. On the other hand, if developers will support FT using FT's hooks then power to them and everybody is happy.

It's not NP technology, please! That's because NP never can put your "company face" and said what's wrong with Freetrack.

The same to some game devs. Why in hell can't Oleg or Ilya come to this forum and answer costumers questions about suport for Freetrack interface?

Bohemia Interactive GIVE FULL FREETRACK SUPORT INTO ARMAII AND O:A, so, please stop the stupid talking about legal or "moral" issues regards NP and Freetrack. We aren't stupid, respect our intelect. Or you really believe that BIS have the risk to be sued for Freetrack native suport? Read this line of the changelog of ArmAII 1.05 patch:

" [60457] New: FreeTrack support using FreeTrackClient.dll "

Other thing is the fact that NP give some kind of "help" to devs, and they have SHAME to come into public and assume a lot of things...

Isn't hard to create a clear picture about that, sorry. And it's a shame. The next step to NP will be bother Madentec?!?!?! Or better: "proprietary math"?

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...10.1.1.50.9280

By the way, 120FPS here with PS3Eye... A cheap cam.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM

It's not NP technology, please! ~

its NP software, and that is what they are protecting, with every right to do so

Originally Posted by GHarris

Regarding Wolf_Rider's comments that Freetrack developers should "make the approach" or "seek inclusion - professionally"... "Professonal approaches" are what people with something to sell do. The Freetrack developers are not in it to make a profit. I don't understand why they *should* be expected to "approach" a sim developer. Freetrack is out there, it's open source, that's all that is needed. Oleg and his colleagues have heard of Freetrack (they must have done) and all they need to know about implementing it is readily available to them.

I am a supporter of Freetrack because I simply prefer an open and free (as in speech) implementation of head tracking to a proprietary one. A proprietary implementation will inevitably be abused by the people in control of it at the expense of current and past customers. As was the case when TrackIR started encrypting its data stream and made versions 1 and 2 of its TrackIR hardware incompatible with new games when they could otherwise still work. The controllers of a proprietary implementation might also seek to stifle competition from other proprietary or open implementations. As was the case when "Implementation of the "HeadTracker" interface <was> canceled at the request of NaturalPoint." in DCS: Black Shark.

wot, use somebody elses' (FT) gear without their permission, or include a method of FT gear getting stuck into somebody elses' (NP) software.

nah... the professional thing to do is to make the approach and seek inclusion, offering a proper product.


NP were protecting their rights... if the FT software did its own work, instead of syphoning off from somebody elses', you'd find it would have been a completely different ballgame - be sure

Originally Posted by julian265

They've wooed developers into implementing an interface which ONLY ACCEPTS TIR, which was the logical thing for them to do.

correct and completely understandable for NP to professionally make the approach to seek inclusion and then protect their software, after all, they made the effort. Would it have been too hard for FT to develop their own interface in the beginning, instead of hacking another?

Originally Posted by julian265

However, they're still lobbying for the exclusion of a generic interface (like mice/joysticks/throttles/wheels/pedals use) - which is holding back competition and development.

do you have some proof of that?

and

how does that gear get to work in the games at the moment and has been for many years now?

[julian265]

Originally Posted by CharveL

From what I've seen they are always willing to help their customers personally and often beyond what's called for, and seems a bit unfair when they are made out to be villains simply for protecting their work. Either way, that's for anyone to make their own opinion based on their own experience.

"simply for protecting their work" - does this extend to lobbying developers to exclude compatibility with other people's work (not just FT)? (this is my only problem with them, apart from screwing TIR 1 and 2 owners)

Originally Posted by CharveL

The other factor to keep in mind is that the hardware itself relieves the CPU from much of the heavy lifting, providing up to 120hz refresh rate depending on the model, which improves your apparant in-game framerate considerably from the 24fps - 30fps (give or take) of your webcam. On a CPU intensive sim like CoD you need all the spare cycles you can get. With that said, some people can't tell the difference between a framerate of 20fps and 60fps so YMMV.

FT 6dof @ 30 FPS plus frame interpolation took less than 1% of CPU time on an E8400 - it won't have any noticable effect on the frame rate of any game.

Originally Posted by CharveL

NP did all the legwork to make headtracking possible including wooing developers into adding the necessary hooks into their software, otherwise there would be no Freetrack, so I don't exactly blame them for not wanting to let others ride off of their work. On the other hand, if developers will support FT using FT's hooks then power to them and everybody is happy.

They've wooed developers into implementing an interface which ONLY ACCEPTS TIR, which was the logical thing for them to do. However, they're still lobbying for the exclusion of a generic interface (like mice/joysticks/throttles/wheels/pedals use) - which is holding back competition and development.

[wannabetheace]

Originally Posted by Royraiden

Freetrack
Pros:
-FREE software
-Easy to set up and use once you got the setup built correctly
-Easy to replace(if the camera fails)

Cons:
-Support(not all games supporting track ir support freetrack, correct me)
-Bothersome to make clip(at least to me)
-Requires a dark room to work properly most of the time

TrackIR
Pros:
-No need to build
-More complex software(im assuming)
-Comes with reflective clip(does not need a dark room to work properly)
-Better support on games

Cons:
-Expensive!

I guess there are more cons but since I dont own a TIR setup I dont know which ones.

If I decided to go for the TrackIR I would try to get the TIR4 but it isnt available on amazon and theres just a few on ebay.Where is the cheapest place I could get one?Feel free to correct my mistakes, if there's any.Give me some advice/suggestions/experience.And most importantly,is Freetrack going to be supported at release?Im fairly new to the forum so maybe this was discussed earlier.

How about Hat-Track
it is much cheaper and looks good as TrackIR

[albx]

Originally Posted by wannabetheace

How about Hat-Track
it is much cheaper and looks good as TrackIR

NOOOOOOO are you kidding? They also stoled NP ideas, software, hardware, everything

[blampars]

Originally Posted by Royraiden

Having already ordered a HOTAS+Rudder pedals for this sim(thanks to all the kind members for sharing your thoughts and experience on my other thread),now its time for me to consider upgrading my head tracking setup.I've been using Freetrack for the past year with almost no complaints regarding the software.On the other hand, due to my poor craftsmanship, my 3 point clip started failing on me,something I was expecting because that thing was held on by layers and layers of duct tape(yes it was a pretty cheap build).So I've read several times that I could use the Natural Point Track Clip Pro with Freetrack, and went to their website to order one.I can get it shipped for $60.00.If I would have know these from the start I would have saved the money I spent on the webcam+ tools and parts and go all out for a TrackIR solution.My main concern is,how can I be sure that Freetrack is going to be supported when the game comes out?If I could choose I would stay with freetrack because its a great piece of software,and the fact that it is free.Though there are a few advantages to owning Track Ir.The most important for me is the reflective Clip.Having the 3 point clip with Freetrack means that I need to have my headphones on in addition to another cable hanging around my face.I guess I could build a reflective clip for Freetrack but I honestly dont want to fiddle more with parts.....

I took a peek at my next paycheck yesterday, and happily noticed that it was more than double what is usual. Thank you Michigan winter for snowing and bringing me overtime.

I just sprung for Track IR 5, it should be here Tuesday. Interested to see how it compares to FTnoIR that I've been using.