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[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Already did.

Sure, you can keep at it. But I've already thoroughly debased your reputation and argument.

From this point out its pointless for me to debate you any further. If you want to obstruct mature discussion with your immature trolling, that talks volumes. As for reasonable men - they would not step aside from the duty to deride the despicable.

But I will give you an opportunity to redeem yourself and get some brownie points, if you can explain to me the role of the sensor/viewing medium, in conjunction with FOV, to create magnification. Ie - what IS magnification? Do you know?

well, if you can't put up something to verify your claim... just say so.


and... "what is magnification??

World English Dictionary
magnification (ˌmæɡnɪfɪˈkeɪʃən)

— n
1. the act of magnifying or the state of being magnified
2. the degree to which something is magnified
3. a copy, photograph, drawing, etc, of something magnified
4. a measure of the ability of a lens or other optical instrument to magnify, expressed as the ratio of the size of the image to that of the object

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

well, if you can't put up something to verify your claim... just say so.

Already did. Check this post;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=198

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

and... "what is magnification??

World English Dictionary
magnification (ˌmæɡnɪfɪˈkeɪʃən)

— n
1. the act of magnifying or the state of being magnified
2. the degree to which something is magnified
3. a copy, photograph, drawing, etc, of something magnified
4. a measure of the ability of a lens or other optical instrument to magnify, expressed as the ratio of the size of the image to that of the object

Well that's a start - so it's the APPARENT size of something isn't it?

So apparent to what (ie, what is the sensor detecting the 'apparent' size of something?), how do we measure apparent size and how can we increase (ie magnify) the apparent size of something?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Already did. Check this post;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=198



Well that's a start - so it's the APPARENT size of something isn't it?

So apparent to what (ie, what is the sensor detecting the 'apparent' size of something?), how do we measure apparent size and how can we increase (ie magnify) the apparent size of something?

yes, I saw your cheap trick there.... well done err except, you were saying FoV and binocluars (zooming) were the same thing. All you have explained is the FoV of a pair of binoculars and the properties of maginfication with regard to which end of the binoculars are being looked through.

try again...

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

yes, I saw your cheap trick there.... well done err except, you were saying FoV and bonocluars (zooming) were the same thing. All you have explained is the FoV of a pair of binoculars

Ahh but there's more to it - FOV and magnification are LINKED, not just ASPECTS of binoculars you see!

Think deeply for a moment about what is happening. Light is coming in at certain angular limits - lets call this the 'angle of view' and in the case of our eyes its something like 90 degree cones for each eye - and the eye is focussing it onto a small sensor called the retina.

What binoculars, telescopes and magnifying glasses do is modify the Angle of view from which light is being collected, then REFOCUS it onto the eye and retina! Actually, so do photographic lenses.

Let me explain that a bit more. A telescope, for example, will grab light from a cone much smaller than our normal angle of view/field of view of 90 degrees per eye, then refocus and shift the light rays to project them onto our WHOLE retina! So it is as if our retina didn't change in size, but our eye focussed light from a much smaller cone - say a 5 degree cone rather than 90 degree cone - onto it.

The result is that the full visual acuity of our retina is focussed on a much smaller part of the world, and that part of the world appears to increase in size - it is 'magnified'.

In other words, they modify the ANGLE OF VIEW, also know as the FIELD OF VIEW, in order to magnify! IT is the very PRINCIPLE by which magnification works!

A related way of thinking about this is that we judge the size of something by its angular size - the amount of our view that it occupies. Our brain then figures out distance to interpolate actual size. OF course, our brain does not know exactly how much of our field of vision something occupies - it receives information from the retina. So it is actually the size of an image on the retina that is used to judge apparent size. This allows us to trick the brain by bypassing the normal cone of vision our eye projects onto the retina, and thus make a small angle of view occupy more of our retina! Thus, we have magnification.

ANGLE/FIELD OF VIEW is FUNDAMENTAL to magnification!


So now games -

Let's step back for a moment. You are sitting in a room with a monitor a certain distance in front of your of a certain size (lets assume you dont move closer/further). This monitor only occupies a portion of your angle/field of view, and thus only a portion of the image being projected by your eye onto your retina.

On this monitor (lets assume no bezel) is displayed a game with a certain amount of the world displaying according to the game's 'FOV' setting. What does this setting do?

Like a telescope or lens, except purely in the mathematics of 3d rendering, the FOV setting determines how much of the 3d 'scene' to render onto the screen (let's ignore perspective, ie, how straight lines appear and how things are distorted in it, which can of course be changed too). Its not actually a cone, unlike our eye, because the monitor is generally square, but it could be of course. But it is like a rectangular cone into the world.

If the FOV is set high, then a larger rectangular cone of the world is displayed on the monitor - but there is a cost - the monitor has certain acuity limits (resolution for example) and fine detail information is lost. Moreover, however, the monitor still occupies the same portion of the viewer's retina, so things will appear SMALLER than they would in reality, and with less detail (because our retina has acuity limits too).

If we set FOV to EXACTLY EQUAL the angle of view (and portion of our retina) that the monitor's image occupies, than projections of objects on the screen will occupy AS LARGE A PORTION OF OUR RETINA AS THEY WOULD IN REALITY. This is what I call a 1:1 view. The result? OBJECTS APPEAR AT THE SAME ANGULAR AND APPARENT SIZE AS IN REALITY! There's still some loss of acuity though, because the resolution of the monitor is likely LOWER than the visual acuity of our retina to discern details in the image of the monitor projected onto it - in other words, resolution on the monitor is not high enough to exceed the capabilities of our eye. But at 1:1, objects occupy as much of our retina and appear as large as they would in reality.

The big drawback is that only a small portion of the world or a few objects can be displayed on our retina - so we get 'tunnel vision', as you pointed out earlier. Such is the cost of 1:1 apparent size.

So what happens if we set FOV in the game LOWER than the angle/field of view the monitor occupies on our retina? Well we get a zoomed, or 'magnified' (and by this I mean a magnification of more than 1x) view, because the portion of the world displayed on our monitor now occupies a LARGER part of our retina than it would IF WE WERE IN THE GAME WORLD ITSELF AS HUMAN BEINGS. Remember that game worlds are basically representations of our physical worlds as if we occupied them!

This is basically as if we stood in the game world as human beings and use binoculars/telescopes. Now, the apparent size of objects is GREATER than it would be with the normal view of our eye, and so our retina's visual acuity and our monitor's acuity is bieng used to discern MORE detail in a SMALLER portion of the world. Just like telescopes.


Now there is an important aspect that I have not mentioned, and that is the tradeoff between realistic apparent size (ie 1:1 view) and realistic ANGLE OF VIEW INTO THE GAME WORLD. Because we are flexible and goal oriented beings, we do not necessarily put a premium on one or the other, and are able to adapt to either.

In other words, we might consider it more important to use our monitors to display a LARGER portion of the world and a LARGER FOV, despite the loss of visual acuity, because we dont actually need to see fine details to play the game!

OR, and this is why we use it in IL2, we might want to display LESS of the game world and use our monitor to display a SMALLER portion of the world to maximise the visual acuity of fine details, because we need these to play the game (for example gunnery in IL2).

Both are compromises that stem from the fact we are trying to play a game with a small monitor. And this is why I keep telling you that you shouldn't look at this in such an inflexible way - FOV is a compromise, THERE IS NO CORRECT FOV IN A GAME WHEN PRESENTED WITH LIMITED DISPLAY SIZE!

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Ahh but there's more to it - FOV and magnification are LINKED, not just ASPECTS of binoculars you see!

Think deeply for a moment about what is happening. Light is coming in at certain angular limits - lets call this the 'angle of view' and in the case of our eyes its something like 90 degree cones for each eye - and the eye is focussing it onto a small sensor called the retina.

What binoculars, telescopes and magnifying glasses do is modify the Angle of view from which light is being collected, then REFOCUS it onto the eye and retina! Actually, so do photographic lenses.

Let me explain that a bit more. A telescope, for example, will grab light from a cone much smaller than our normal angle of view/field of view of 90 degrees per eye, then refocus and shift the light rays to project them onto our WHOLE retina! So it is as if our retina didn't change in size, but our eye focussed light from a much smaller cone - say a 5 degree cone rather than 90 degree cone - onto it.

The result is that the full visual acuity of our retina is focussed on a much smaller part of the world, and that part of the world appears to increase in size - it is 'magnified'.

In other words, they modify the ANGLE OF VIEW, also know as the FIELD OF VIEW, in order to magnify! IT is the very PRINCIPLE by which magnification works!

ANGLE/FIELD OF VIEW is FUNDAMENTAL to magnification!

well, if you want to use real binoculars to zoom into the narrow FoV (as selected) of the (any) computer game as displayed on your monitor and view the pixels real big... go right ahead.
With regard to the (any computer) game and selecting a narrow Fov, and using in sim (assuming the game has them available) binoculars, you'll find that changing the FoV and zooming in or out are not the same thing.






*Edit

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

A related way of thinking about this is that we judge the size of something by its angular size - the amount of our view that it occupies. Our brain then figures out distance to interpolate actual size. OF course, our brain does not know exactly how much of our field of vision something occupies - it receives information from the retina. So it is actually the size of an image on the retina that is used to judge apparent size. This allows us to trick the brain by bypassing the normal cone of vision our eye projects onto the retina, and thus make a small angle of view occupy more of our retina! Thus, we have magnification.

Lenses
A convex lens bends the light that goes through it toward a focal point. The light spreads out again past this focal point. Magnifying glasses are convex lenses. When you use one, the lens bends the light rays so that they come together and focus on the lens within your eye. The light then spreads out as the rays continue past the focal point, and they hit the retina of the eye. The spreading of the light makes the image viewed appear much larger than it really is because it causes the image to take up more space on the retina. Moving the magnifying glass closer or farther away from the eye will change how much the light is spread on the retina. The closer the magnifying glass is to the eye, the bigger the image will appear.



Read more: How Does Magnification Work? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4947702...#ixzz1tF7id261

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

ANGLE/FIELD OF VIEW is FUNDAMENTAL to magnification!

No... lenses are... but that seems omitted from your addin to your previous post...

FoV (or as you'll interchange them now Angle of View) is the amount (the angle) the lens "sees"... magnification, via a series of lenses as with binoculars, brings that image closer (or further away if you look down the wrong end)

[irR4tiOn4L]

Reread the post, ive added a lot.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

well, if you want to use real binoculars to zoom into the narrow FoV (as selected) of the (any) computer game as displayed on your monitor and view the pixels real big... go right ahead.

Ahh now that is an interesting point - I COULD use binoculars to increase the APPARENT SIZE of the monitor FIRST, and thus make pixels BIGGER in apparent size!

But what am I reallly doing? I am actually increasing the portion of my retina that is taken up by the monitor! And even more interestingly, I am actually changing the real world angle/field of view that the that the monitor occupies and thus need to change the FOV ingame if I want to maintain the same apparent size of objects ingame! Do you see now?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

With regard to the (any computer) game and selecting a narrow Fov, and using in sim (assuming the game has them available) binoculars, you'll find that changing the FoV and zooming in or out are not the same thing.

Ah but they are!

Let's think of the typical game binoculars. When you 'activate' them, your whole view is suddenly taken up by a simulated 'view' from them. Here is an example;



So what's actually happening?

Well, let's break this down.

First, there is a UI texture being applied that creates the 'binocular' outline itself. That's the black bit around the edge. Its basically just a texture like this;




But objects clearly appear larger when you use the ingame binoculars! So what actually causes the magnification of the image?

You guessed it! FOV!

All the developers do, apart from this black outline texture, is lower the FOV!

Look at what this 3D Game Programming guide for example has to say;

Page 515
Typical first-person point-of-view games use a 90-degree FOV and often have a 60-degree FOV (or even smaller) zoomed-in view for their sniper scopes or binoculars

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...culars&f=false

Yep, that is all there is to it!

[Wolf_Rider]

read mine...I added some as well.


keep on trying....

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

read mine...I added some as well.


keep on trying....

Have you read my post and what you added? Do you realise they prove me right?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

*Edit

Lenses
A convex lens bends the light that goes through it toward a focal point. The light spreads out again past this focal point. Magnifying glasses are convex lenses. When you use one, the lens bends the light rays so that they come together and focus on the lens within your eye. The light then spreads out as the rays continue past the focal point, and they hit the retina of the eye. The spreading of the light makes the image viewed appear much larger than it really is because it causes the image to take up more space on the retina. Moving the magnifying glass closer or farther away from the eye will change how much the light is spread on the retina. The closer the magnifying glass is to the eye, the bigger the image will appear.

Read more: How Does Magnification Work? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4947702...#ixzz1tF7id261

What is being described here is this - the magnifying glass bends light gathered all over its surface toward a point behind it in a cone. The closer you get to that lens, the bigger the image on your retina, and the more magnified the view.

Do you know another way of describing that? That's right! The amount of your retina taken up by the image determines apparent size!

Think back to what I wrote - it is ultimately the size of the image on your RETINA, not your actual angle of view, that determines apparent size. When nothing interferes with your angle of view, your eye does the focussing onto the retina, and thus your actual angle of view correlates with apparent size.

But if we place a lens - such as a magnifying glass, telescope, binoculars etc - in front of the eye, your ACTUAL ANGLE OF VIEW - ie, the view out from your face - is no longer important, because your eye's field of view has effectively been replaced (or supplemented really) by that of the lens! And depending on the lens, it may have a very wide or narrow angle of view.

The fundamental principle here however is the portion of an image that is being displayed on your retina. The more of an object fills your retina, the larger it will appear!

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

No... lenses are... but that seems omitted from your addin to your previous post...

FoV (or as you'll interchange them now Angle of View) is the amount (the angle) the lens "sees"... magnification, via a series of lenses as with binoculars, brings that image closer (or further away if you look down the wrong end)

Well it actually makes the image FROM the lens take up more of your retina. Its the image on the retina that is important.

Now you might say - well whats that got to do with fov? Why isnt it just bringing the image 'closer'. Well, first of all, its about the size of an image on the retina, not how 'close' it is. Thats why we talk about angular size.

For example, how big is the sun? Our brain knows its very big, but in reality, it appears no larger than the moon! Thats because the moon is much closer, and its angular size is similar!

If we didn't have extra information to determin which is bigger, we could be forgiven for thinking the sun was no bigger than the moon!

More importantly though, LENSES HAVE FOVS OF THEIR OWN, AND IT IS THIS FOV THAT IS IMPORTANT. In other words, the FOV OUT of the binoculars is given by the lenses in it, and this ultimately determines what portion of the world the binoculars focus on our retina. The smaller this slice of the world, the bigger individual objects appear on our retina - and thus the more they are MAGNIFIED.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Have you read my post and what you added? Do you realise they prove me right?

Try that one again...

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Try that one again...

Its been updated with a thorough explanation.

But let's just double back to a crucial bit of info;

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

All the developers do, apart from this black outline texture, is lower the FOV!

Look at what this 3D Game Programming guide for example has to say;

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...culars&f=false

Yep, that is all there is to it!

GAME DEVELOPERS USE FOV TO MAKE ZOOMED IN BINOCULAR AND TELESCOPIC VIEWS!

Yep, it really is all about FOV!

If you want, I can even BUILD you 'mock binoculars' in CLoD, by doing nothing more than changing the FOV and introducing a black outline texture! Its THAT simple!

In other words, every time I switch to 30 fov in IL2 CLoD, its as if I was using what most games call 'binoculars' - it's the same zoomed in view and all it is missing is the black outline texture. But even this 'binocular' view still doesn't make individual objects appear at 1:1 apparent size because my monitor is still too small.