Does the 109E have armor?

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The Spitfires and Hurricanes are vulnerable to 7.92 rounds as well.

The fact is, unless the enemy aircraft is dead six behind, a bullet can easily sneak around the edges of the armour and hit the pilot.

In addition, multiple .303 hits on the same section of armour plate will penetrate, and when you have 8 guns firing, it doesn't take long.

According to the experts, the British fighters were equipped with weapons which were well suited for combat versus lightly built enemy fighters, but poorly equipped to take down the heavier built bombers. Vice Versa, the 109's were equipped poorly for taking down enemy fighters, in any kind of deflection shooting at fast maneuvering targets, the MG F/F with its low muzzle velocity is too inaccurate. Ironically the 109's armament was better suited to downing enemy bombers.

Both sides could have used the other's weapons to better purpose.

I expect both the 109's and the British aircraft are armoured.

[zander]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

In addition, multiple .303 hits on the same section of armour plate will penetrate, and when you have 8 guns firing, it doesn't take long.

"IF" you hit the the same spot twice - only that's not gonna happen irl, especially if you consider the firing window you have.
Conclusion:
If you can't penetrate the armor with your first bullet you never will.
Try to hit another weak spot and your golden.

[lonewulf]

Interesting thread. What I'd like to know is whether the armour penetrating qualities of 20 mm cannon rounds are actually modelled in the sim.

As I understand it, even 20 mm ball rounds should be able to defeat most of the armour plating installed in 1940 vintage fighter, if the range is kept relatively short. That's hardly surprising when you consider that, at this time, the head plate would more often than not be less than 10 mm thick and your average 20 mm 'AP round' would penetrate twice that thickness with ease.

I raise this issue because in my (admittedly limited experience), even concentrated strikes on the dead six position of an allied fighter from a cannon armed 109 is unlikely to result in a pilot kill.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by zander

"IF" you hit the the same spot twice - only that's not gonna happen irl, especially if you consider the firing window you have.
Conclusion:
If you can't penetrate the armor with your first bullet you never will.
Try to hit another weak spot and your golden.

Anytime you hit a section of piece of steel with the force of a bullet, you are weakening the whole piece. The force of the bullet is transmitted through the entire structure, stretching and warping it. The next bullet which hits, strikes a weakened structure.

And to suggest only one bullet could hit a seat rear in a single burst is inaccurate, I have read a number of accounts of surviving pilots coming back with multiple hits on their armoured seat back and with it cracked and warped.

[Kurfürst]

Well until you will have a NASTRAN level material engineering code in Il-2 this is rather theoretical (as it is in real life IMO) so we will have simplified model where the armor plate will be good as new any time it is hit... so can we just skip it and get back to the point?

Does the Il-2 Bf 109E armor modelled or not?

[Kurfürst]

A few reports on shot down 109E inspected by the British on the ground.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/53 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed 30.09.40 at 17.00 hours, at Queens Anne's Gate, Windsor Great Park. Markings: 9 painted on yellow engine cowling. Spinner white with black circle on tip. Old markings had been painted out, viz. PH + LV. Airframe built by Arado, 29.06.40,. No. 109.4851. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft forced landed and turned over. There are a number of bullet strikes from astern.

Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and x 2 under engine cowling. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead and head protection for the pilot.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/54 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed on 30.09.40 at 16.50 hours at Sydling St. Nicholas, near Cerne Abbas. Map ref:U0821.
Markings not decipherable. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft dived into the ground and burnt out. Pilot baled out, but was killed owing to parachute failure. Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and two under engine cowling traced. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead was found only.


AIR 22/266

Me 109. Crashed on 31.08.40 at Jubilee Farm, Ulcombe. Identification markings 10 + I, black Gothic S on white shield. Fuselage built by ERLA Werke Nr. 62914. Cause of crash, fighter action, condition fair. Aircraft made good landing, wheels up. Armament: 20 mm shell guns in wings and x 2 MG 17 machine guns under engine cowling.
Armour usual bulkhead, pilots head protected by shield. Crew 1, prisoner. Camouflaged green upper surfaces, light blue underneath. In good condition, suitable for exhibition purposes.
The DB601 engine is reported to have had the number 11366/211002a.


Type: Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4 Werke/Nr. 1325

A.I 1(g) Report No. 3/67 states:

Crashed on 30.09.40 at Langney, near Eastbourne. Map ref: R.0820. Markings 13 + (figures in yellow). Orange nose, rudder and fin. Engine DB601A, No.63509, made by Daimler Benz at Genshagen, Toltow.
Armament: 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG 17. Armour: normal cross bulkhead, and panel behind pilots head. Following fighter action, aircraft forced landed. A few .303 strikes in cooling system and engine. Pilot prisoner.


A.I.2.(g) Report 1940

Me 109. Forced landed at Love's Farm, Marden, Kent on 05.09.40. Markings < + - black, outlines in white. Crest: Shield U-shaped, outlined in red, divided into 8 segments coloured black and white. Wing tip and rudder painted white, camouflage all blue, fuselage all blue. Spinner divided into alternate black and white sectors. Fitted with Bd601A engine made by Mercedes Benz Erke Nr.10598. Aircraft forced landed following fighter action. Condition reported to be very good. Standard armament x 2 20 mm cannon and x 2 MG 17 machine guns. No head armour.. Starboard wing shows many .303 strikes.

[zander]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Anytime you hit a section of piece of steel with the force of a bullet, you are weakening the whole piece. The force of the bullet is transmitted through the entire structure, stretching and warping it. The next bullet which hits, strikes a weakened structure.

And to suggest only one bullet could hit a seat rear in a single burst is inaccurate, I have read a number of accounts of surviving pilots coming back with multiple hits on their armoured seat back and with it cracked and warped.

Buddy, I have lots of guns and tried that - it only works with concrete where the material chips off.
If you where right you could penetrate a tank if you had the time - that may even work, only under lab conditions tho'.

Fire real bullets into real steel, then come back and report.

[VO101_Tom]

loosely connected

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

On my Hurricane weight thread, Kurfust said:

Originally posted by Kurfurst:
The armored headrest weighted 13 kg which we do not have in the game, and if fact, its somewhat uncommon to be seen on BoB era 109E.

So if the the 109 has no headrest, that would pretty obviously explain the pilot kills. Hard to miss those unprotected big German Square heads poking up in the cockpit.

[ATAG_Doc]

It was during BoB I have the same book. He bumped his head and was very angry about it. But later the same day it saved his life.