Bf-110 is THE fighter

[bongodriver]

of course it gave good account, many aircraft did, more testament to the crews abilities though, even the hurricane gave a good account of itself and we all know what a pig that is (highest scoring aircraft in the batttle of britain)

[Blue 5]

Actually, it gave a pretty good account of itself. Recent studies of actual kills vs. actual losses suggest that it did just as well if not better than 109s. But 110s were few in number compared to the numerous 109s (roughly 300 vs 1000+ 109s), and their losses (200 or so) compared to their number were severe for the heavy fighter arm. Every 110 that fell, it left a gaping hole; when a 109 was lost it was just one member of a big hive..

Oh, what clap-trap; you've taken the revisionist line to an absurd degree

It was a good aircraft that has been unfairly maligned by historians, certainly, and the BoB was probably the worst way it could have been used (stemming from Fink and Osterkamp's gentleman's agreement about escort vs free hunting). It also probably accounted for more RAF aircraft than is generally stated (heavy armament and good crews plus most RAF pilots would tend to assume a 109 got them), but the idea that it got more kills than the 109 is risible, think of the exchange rate that would have meant given the numbers involved!

Also, as has been pointed out, the loss rate vs total operational strength is pretty bad (especially given the larger fuel supply and 2 engines meant probably fewer losses of damaged examples in the Channel). 200 is not a 'gaping number compared to their numbers', it's a disaster which - given the smaller numbers of 110s involved - suggests it was simply more vulnerable than a 109.

It's a good design that's got short shrift, but that doesn't mean it didn't do pretty badly over England even if it was not all due to the aircraft itself.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Actually, it gave a pretty good account of itself. Recent studies of actual kills vs. actual losses suggest that it did just as well if not better than 109s. But 110s were few in number compared to the numerous 109s (roughly 300 vs 1000+ 109s), and their losses (200 or so) compared to their number were severe for the heavy fighter arm. Every 110 that fell, it left a gaping hole; when a 109 was lost it was just one member of a big hive..

Your argument the Me-110 gave a good account of itself is completely falacious, as proven by your own admittance the losses suffered by the Zerstorer Geschwader were in fact, unsustainable. As far as the claims of kills by 110 Geschwader, the actual losses by the RAF show there was an overclaim of at least 3-1.

In addition, Luftwaffe operational data shows the 110's were unable to fulfil their designed role as long range escorts for the bombers, and in fact, the Luftwaffe found it necessary to assign 109's to escort them. They were unable to operate over England alone in Free Hunt or Escort role without the protection of single engined fighters.

After the failure to act in the escort role, the 110's were then assigned the fighterbomber role, but again, did not succeed in achieving their task without serious losses.

The result was they were withdrawn from this role as well, and in the later stages of the daylight battle, it was the 109's who were assigned to the 'hit and run' fighterbomber missions against the southern English ports and factories, not the 110s.

As far as the 110's flight model in CLIFFS OF DOVER, it is clear they are overmodelled when compared to the Spitfire I and IA, even considering these aircraft are currently operating with the two pitch propellor arrangement.

For you to insist the current performance comparison is appropriate is clearly nonsense, especially considering your own site has the excerpt from the Luftwaffe's own August 8th 1940 comparison of a Me-110 with a two pitch Spitfire (+6 boost captured during the Dunkirk evacuation), which notes the Me-110 was inferior in speed and climb to the Spitfire except at sea level:

The plane Bf 110 C is speed-wise inferior to the Spitfire, superior to the Curtiss
and Hurricane. Regarding the climb performance is the Curtiss equal at ground level,
up to 4 km superior then inferior. Hurricane is inferior up to altitude 2 km, then
superior up to 6.5 km. Spitfire is equal at ground level, otherwise superior.

Kurfurst site page:

http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri...g_Aug1940.html

Obviously the game's aircraft Flight Model is in flux now, the Spitfire's, Hurricane's and 109's are clearly undermodelled as far as performance is concerned. The 110 may be the only aircraft modelled up to its historical level, and is thus showing an advantage.

Hopefully we will see the appropriate adjustments.

[Lololopoulos]

now that i'm reading this post i can't wait to play this game. I need april 26 to come faster.

[FlushMeister]

y'all buncha dad gum know-it-alls!!

[senseispcc]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

it didn't do so well in real life though, I think they withdrew it during the battle of britain and made it a night fighter because they lost so many.

During the Battle of Britain very quickly they put some BF109 to escort the ME110, the only real defensive tactic of the Me 110 was to form a defensive circle and hope the enemy did not penetrate it. If a Me 110 can out maneuver a Spitfire or a Hurricane there is a mistake somewhere.

Have a nice simulation.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

it didn't do so well in real life though, I think they withdrew it during the battle of britain and made it a night fighter because they lost so many.

Herman Goering ordered them to fly close escort the bombers, thus lost all their advantages.

They are strictly a first-strike warplane, and need close cooperation in case EA got on 6 (the MG-15 TG was hardly adequate).

The Hurricane was slower, but can out maneuver the 110, a Spit was more then match.

OH, the purpose of the 2ed crew, the TGer, was NOT for the BB gun in rear, but to switch the 60 round, 15kg MG-FF cannon magazines, a difficult task even in level light!

Ok, I forgot how much the 60 round drum weighs, but know for fact the MG-15 magazine is 4.5Kg loaded, pretty hefty.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by lbuchele

It´s a new beast compared to Il2 in my opinion.
If used with B&Z tatics you can eat spitfires and hurricanes for lunch.
The visuals in this game are so incredible too,I was catching a Spitfire with diffficulty, almost in tree top height,with no hope to reach it,when decided to do a high yo-yo,and suddenly have a brief firing solution: give it a 2 sec burst and just saw one single hit in the left aileron when the spit was in a 90 degree turn.
It slowly turn even more to te left and crash to the ground exploding beautifully.
There are so many of this beautiful moments happening, but it´s really difficult to me to express in words because I´m not a native english speaking person...

Thanks sounds cool! You're pissing me off since I cannot get it yet!

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by lbuchele

If used with B&Z tatics you can eat spitfires and hurricanes for lunch.

This doesn't sound good. As others have said, it wasn't good enough as a fighter, and that's not because it had to fly slowly next to the bombers, it just wasn't as good as the Spit or Hurricane.

And the Hurricane, a pig? Sounds like you've been playing too much IL2 without reading any facts.

[lbuchele]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

This doesn't sound good. As others have said, it wasn't good enough as a fighter, and that's not because it had to fly slowly next to the bombers, it just wasn't as good as the Spit or Hurricane.

And the Hurricane, a pig? Sounds like you've been playing too much IL2 without reading any facts.

You can't,naturally,to fight in equal terms neither with the Spit or the Hurricane in a turn fight.
Not even dream about it.You have to maintain your speed at all costs and use cannons and MG fire in snapshots or better yet if you are a better deflection shooter than me...
Something I have noticed is that sometimes you CAN win a turn fight with a particular Spit.
It's like it had a real bad pilot inside, I don't know if is just a feeling that I had or somebody already experienced this ingame?