4.11 - AI debugging

[greybeard1]

Thanks for your comments.

Indeed, I set AI=Easy in DGen Options and still a single error of mine causes my death in game. I don't expect racking up lots of victories in each mission but often just to survive (even if I fail a move...). I linked poll thinking this raises question level from opinion confrontation to statistic.

[[URU]BlackFox]

In the matter of friendly AI having an inferior performance, I agree. Even if I could just tell my Stuka Flight to correctly perform a low level attack on a truck column, and not just drop bombs anywhere with no reason, I would be glad.

Something that would be awesome for 4.12 is that you could tell your attack flight which profile to use (dive, level, shallow dive, skip bomb, etc.). Nowadays the AI attacks correctly only if you stick to the aircraft Java code role (a Stuka won't strafe even if it finds a light truck column, for example). And having your flight identify a target when you don't use padlock is a little hard.

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by [URU]BlackFox

My squadron flies coops regularly, and the new AI has revitalized this kind of game. Maybe you should try lowering the AI level in the missions you play until you get used to it. Just don't expect to shoot down loads of enemies every miossion as you used to. I myself have had to disengage dogfight and just let them be a lot of times, just like in real life.

+1

There are still some relatively minor quirks and errors in the AI behavioral routines that are thankfully far-between, but the recent AI overhaul has revitalized the game, offline and online. It changed the way I play the game. Often times I find myself now thinking and behaving as though my backside is really inside that aircraft (as opposed to feeling totally invincible and fearless, and being other-worldly aggressive in an artificially predictable environment). I've seen the AI do totally human things, like stall and/or crash in a panic, and I've seen some AI fighter flights actually turn around and run away from a fight.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

The only gripe I have about the new AI is their deflection shooting skills, which seems a bit too good in high-G turning fights. Perhaps the AI should have a limiting factor equivalent to human's blacking out.

In high G fights it is inevitable that the only shots AI will have are those "under the nose" blind shots and AI is limited in that regard. They anticipate your future point and shoot there. If you pull hard and than change your path a little you are pretty safe. That's basic evasive maneuver which you have to do against humans too.

Nevertheless I'll try to improve their behavior, it is funny though that since the introduction of new shooting model into the development version, about year ago, I'm constantly decreasing AI shooting ability.

Originally Posted by Stig1207

In my view, it's not that the enemy AI are too good in 4.11, but that the friendly AI aren't up to scratch. The enemy AI may have always been better than the friendly AI but since 4.11 the difference is striking.

/ Stig

There was a bug in 4.11 which resulted in AI planes under the player command to be less aggressive than the enemy and friendly AI which are not under player command. That's fixed in 4.11.1 and there should be no difference in behavior between friendly and enemy AI.

But there is a one other important difference, AI guys understand each other and they do their thing. It is different with human leader, players should ,in general, communicate with their AI friends more. If player is a leader he should act as one and tell AI what to do but at the same time he should take care to put his AI friends in the position where they can execute given orders.

Few weeks ago I played some coops with Microwave and in one of the missions I was in the FW190 with Spit on my tail. I called my AI wingman to help me but as long as I was maneuvering wildly AI was not able to follow me. Than I just did what I would do with human wingman, I set my plane in gentle turn, far enough to stay safe but close enough to enemy AI to keep him interested.

I repeated the order to my wingman to cover my butt and it didn't take long before he was right behind the enemy AI and blew him from the sky, perfect Drag & Bag, bread and butter of human Focke Wulf pairs.

Another "problem" with AI is that every player expect different thing from them, it's hard to please everyone.

[Lagarto]

I'm willing to communicate with my AI friends more, provided that I have some commands, like that 'Anyone help me!', under one key. In a dogfight I'm usually too busy to select a proper command from the list.

[Stig1207]

There was a bug in 4.11 which resulted in AI planes under the player command to be less aggressive than the enemy and friendly AI which are not under player command. That's fixed in 4.11.1 and there should be no difference in behavior between friendly and enemy AI.

But there is a one other important difference, AI guys understand each other and they do their thing. It is different with human leader, players should ,in general, communicate with their AI friends more. If player is a leader he should act as one and tell AI what to do but at the same time he should take care to put his AI friends in the position where they can execute given orders.

Few weeks ago I played some coops with Microwave and in one of the missions I was in the FW190 with Spit on my tail. I called my AI wingman to help me but as long as I was maneuvering wildly AI was not able to follow me. Than I just did what I would do with human wingman, I set my plane in gentle turn, far enough to stay safe but close enough to enemy AI to keep him interested.

I repeated the order to my wingman to cover my butt and it didn't take long before he was right behind the enemy AI and blew him from the sky, perfect Drag & Bag, bread and butter of human Focke Wulf pairs.

Another "problem" with AI is that every player expect different thing from them, it's hard to please everyone.[/QUOTE]

In 4.11.1 have lately for the most part been playing 4 vs 4 in QMB. When we engage the AI I have to order them to attack otherwise they just follow me around.

On quite a few occasions I have checked six to see my wingman there as he should be, but a bandit is flying right past him onto my tail! The wingman doesn't shoot at the bandit or even warn me.

There seems to be a whole different level of cooperation between the enemy AI compared to the friendly. Which is a good thing, they are a real challenge, and if the friendly AI were on a par with the enemy AI it would a make for an even more immersive experience.

/Stig

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

I'm willing to communicate with my AI friends more, provided that I have some commands, like that 'Anyone help me!', under one key. In a dogfight I'm usually too busy to select a proper command from the list.

Isn't it possible to create "macros" which map a series of key strokes to single key?

Since we're on the topic of commanding AI. It would be nice if some of the gunner AI routines could be ported to wingman commands. For example, having your wingman be able to tell you to "break left/right" or "stop that" (if you're maneuvering too wildly for him to follow you).

If DT wanted to get really funky with the AI routines, they could include the following:

1) Ability to give warnings to ANY airplane in your flight/squadron - even if you're not in command.

A) Give the player the ability to warn of incoming enemies (currently you can't "call out" bogies if you sight them first - although the AI is generally good about sighting).

B) The ability to tell any airplane to climb/dive/break/evade if they're about to be attacked by surprise.

2) The ability to reassign AI under your command if you take losses. For example, if you lose 2 planes from your squadron, instead of each remaining plane flying solo, you can reassign them to make one pair of wingman and lead.

3) Better ability to communicate with your lead if you're wingman. In addition to the evasive and sighting commands in Suggestion 1, there should also be commands like, "I can't follow you.", "Can't comply.", "Slow down." and "Continue present action." Unlike standard commands, your lead doesn't necessarily have to follow them.

4) The ability to specify particular offensive and defensive tactics for your section/flight/squadron - things like "Thatch Weave" or "Lufberry Circle" and whatever the period name for "Drag and Bag" was.

5) Some ability for the player to program AI behavior - allowing him to make custom formations or implement his own squadron/flight tactics.

6) Some control over AI landing routines - so a flight/squadron leader can command badly damaged planes to land first/divert to auxiliary airfield.

7) Ability to command AI planes to leave the fight - i.e., "Break off," to stop attacking. "Go home," to leave the fight and return to base. "We're scrubbing the mission," to tell your entire squadron/flight to return to base without engaging the enemy - this is appropriate if planes in your flight/squadron collide or get badly shot up by flak before you ever reach the target, making it suicidal to continue.

Ability to control AI aggressiveness - from "be very careful" to "whatever the cost". This is appropriate for campaigns where you need to conserve planes/pilots or where certain missions make or break the campaign.

9) Differences in AI pilot behavior - especially for campaigns. Some pilots might be slightly better or worse at flying or gunnery than their nomimal skill level would indicate. Some might have better or worse eyesight - limiting or improving spotting ability (e.g., Greg "Pappy" Boyington's eyesight wasn't all that great - he often left the job of spotting distant bogies to the rest of the pilots in his flight). Some might be particularly reckless, prone to panicking in a crisis or outright cowardly. Some might be "by the book" while others might be willing to innovate new tactics. Actual "personality" for the people in your squadron would be fun, and give you even more incentive to keep your squadron-mates alive.

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by FC99

Few weeks ago I played some coops with Microwave and in one of the missions I was in the FW190 with Spit on my tail. I called my AI wingman to help me but as long as I was maneuvering wildly AI was not able to follow me. Than I just did what I would do with human wingman, I set my plane in gentle turn, far enough to stay safe but close enough to enemy AI to keep him interested.

I repeated the order to my wingman to cover my butt and it didn't take long before he was right behind the enemy AI and blew him from the sky, perfect Drag & Bag, bread and butter of human Focke Wulf pairs.

I tried that today on 2 occasions and it worked for me too, my wingman bagged the bandit on both occasions.

I also tested the issue of the friendly AI following the human player docilely around if not ordered to attack, thinking it may have been pre-4.11.1 hotfix.
But they still do that. I flew blue, 4 Fw190's(A4 142ata) vs 4 Spitfire Vb, and when I attacked the bandits my flight just followed me without engaging. I also allowed the Spits to catch us, ie. just flying straight and level while they closed in, and watched as they passed by my AI flight and attacked me without any reaction from my AI mates. Usually the bandits didn't bother firing at the AI, only going after me, but on one occasion my no. 4 was attacked and he broke calling for help. But no.3 didn't even respond, he stayed in formation behind me.

So in that respect at least, the friendly AI is limited and also unrealistic, you shouldn't have to order your wingman or members of your flight to clear your tail in that situation.

/Stig

[Lagarto]

Possibly an issue that needs some attention - AI fighters, when making passes at aircraft flying low and slow (usually damaged machines limping back home), quite often crash into the ground, even over flat land.

Another variation of the same problem - recently I've watched a badly smoking AI fighter about to belly-land. His wingman tried to stay in formation with him and crashed.

[eduzk]

The AI pilots of a flight sometimes go 'ballistic' after combat. They let go of their controls and only pull up in the last second when they are about to dive into the ground, then let it go again. It has occurred in older versions too but I think it is more common now. If you are in command you can order them to rejoin, but if not, there is not much to do.

I know one way that should make it happen: You are the flight leader and use autopilot to fly into your landing waypoint. When you reach the WP, your map waypoints change into the landing circle route. If you disengage the autopilot now, any AI pilot who hasn't reached the landing WP by then will lose control. You need to wait for the last one to reach it to make them act normally. (It has been this way for long, not a recent problem)