Post links to 'cheating using the soundmod' tracks here:

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

no i didn't miss that, but you have access to all this, you are accusing all of cheating and being able to, so prove it.

you can delete the files once you are done and go back to stock, and you can warn the servers you are conducting a test so there are no long term implications. wouldn't want to see you banned form servers for proving your point.

why keep going over the same ground. there is about 10 examples in this thread of various confirmed types of cheating. you should put a little effort in yourself to confirm that checksum 2 issue if that is your personal stumbling block, even your own buddies in the dark dungeons confirmed it (and so have others in this same thread).

Originally Posted by Lo0n

actually the reason i don't know what is possible to alter for cheating is because i have zero interest in doing that. i don't fly online at all, if i ever did it would be with a fresh clean install, where is the satisfaction to be found from beating someone using cheats?

just read your own little forum and you'll get an idea, when seeing some of the options posted there just ask yourself which ones would be an advantage to use online against others who dont have them. but interesting you now say you dont know if it is possible to cheat, yet for the last 10 pages you have been arguing cheating doesnt exist and isnt possible. those 2 positions are quite different.

Originally Posted by Lo0n

the point of the absurd argument is that it can be extended to a ridiculous point, reductio ad absurdum, so where you say having a mirror is a cheat, i can just as easily say that having track ir is a cheat, an advantage that is not enjoyed by everyone. jesus, mirrors are no use when you have f6! you probably have a greater advantage if you use a 30 inch screen.

just read your own statement again, and spot the flaw.

Originally Posted by Lo0n

fair enough, blatant cheats like a mk108 armed uber spitfire may be possible with the mod, but i have not seen it, i have not heard of it, and i have seen no evidence that it can be used on a chkruntime=2 server.

you've already stated you dont play online, and you are now saying that because you personally havnt seen it online, it therefore does not exist ?

since you dont seem to get out much, just apply the Principle of Parsimony from those that spend the majority of their time online and want it to remain fair.

Originally Posted by Lo0n

you need to read more at the other place, or quote in context. the frankenplanes have the fm of the planes they replace, so that g4 is a cosmetically altered g2, ditto the g10 erla. they replace a slot in the game. as far as i have seen fm dm and wm are the same as the ones they replace. so at a guess, if they were used in a server where some did not have the mods, then they would appear as a g2 and a g10 to those people. also, at a guess, they would be hardly able to tell the difference anyway.

your failing to mention, or havnt realised, that those planes have improved rear visibility compared to the stock standard models, and that the removal of slightly clouded armored glass also improves visibility. also placing the wings of one plane on another will change its flight characteristics, for better or for worse depending how it is applied (ie it is not just wing textures, but wing shapes and surface area's affected)

but my main point of listing those examples is to clearly demonstrate that the franken monster production line has started.

[Lo0n]

Originally Posted by zapatista

dont you get a bit embarrassed giving each other hand jobs in public ?

now this, this is a good one. can't answer the post, stoop to insults. you really are a fool zap. which is funny when you consistently insult others intelligence. i'm sensing a napoleon complex here, you know what that is short stuff?
jason's post is one of the non-hysterical posts, like beowulfs, in this thread. and he hasn't decided to just call you some kind of paranoid schizo for hte hell of it. i'd call that a reasonable post. maybe not one that you agree with but well, that's life.
comparing a game to disease control... that really is stretching the limits of credibility.

[Lo0n]

Originally Posted by zapatista

why keep going over the same ground. there is about 10 examples in this thread of various confirmed types of cheating. you should put a little effort in yourself to confirm that checksum 2 issue if that is your personal stumbling block, even your own buddies in the dark dungeons confirmed it (and so have others in this same thread).
[I]because you have resolutely failed to demostrate the prevalence of online cheating in chkruntime=2 servers. show me then, pm me the link. like i said, i don't go online, and if i did i would want it to be a fair fight, otherwise what satisfaction is there from winning? or is that the aim no matter how hollow it is?[/I]

just read your own little forum and you'll get an idea, when seeing some of the options posted there just ask yourself which ones would be an advantage to use online against others who dont have them. but interesting you now say you dont know if it is possible to cheat, yet for the last 10 pages you have been arguing cheating doesnt exist and isnt possible. those 2 positions are quite different.
[I]i have been asking for evidence, maybe you missed it? not denying that cheating could be going on, but then with the lack of evidence that would be a logical conclusion. the track posted so far is not conclusive. and so you ahve still not posted the evidence as requested. .[/I]




just read your own statement again, and spot the flaw.



you've already stated you dont play online, and you are now saying that because you personally havnt seen it online, it therefore does not exist ?it's the evidence that i have not seen, in this thread, the evidence that was promised, that is what has not been seen. is that in simple enough terms for you?.
since you dont seem to get out much, just apply the Principle of Parsimony from those that spend the majority of their time online and want it to remain fair.
[I]i get out plenty, hence the majority of my time not being online. see that logical step there? guess you are the basement dweller if you spend ost of your time online.[/I]




your failing to mention, or havnt realised, that those planes have improved rear visibility compared to the stock standard models, and that the removal of slightly clouded armored glass also improves visibility. also placing the wings of one plane on another will change its flight characteristics, for better or for worse depending how it is applied (ie it is not just wing textures, but wing shapes and surface area's affected) [I]not changing flight characteristics when purely making a cosmetic model change, or did you miss that bit? it gives the g-2 fm to the g-4. the fm is not altered. read more. slightly clouded glass... again, read more, did you miss where i said what difference does that make when you have f6 or a huge monitor? [/I]

but my main point of listing those examples is to clearly demonstrate that the franken monster production line has started.

was that really your point? are you sure? and you miss out the other bits where it is said that new slots cannot be created so they have to take the fms of other planes. hence g4 replacing g2, g10 erla replacing g10, typhoon replacing (and having same fm as) tempest... and now for your next round of insults... and still no post showing cheating happening. oh no. that would spoil the fun. prove it and you win. continue with this pointless flaming and you lose.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

now this, this is a good one. can't answer the post, stoop to insults.

1) answered the post
2) responding to tag team of hack kiddies gratifying each other as if that adds weight to their arguments, even when what they said is completely nonsensical

Originally Posted by Lo0n

comparing a game to disease control... that really is stretching the limits of credibility.

you need to check the big word book again, its not a comparison, its an analogy

analogy
- noun (plural analogies) a comparison between one thing and another made for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
- the process of making such a comparison.
- a thing regarded as analogous to another; an analogue.

failed to understand the analogy perhaps ?

[Lo0n]

well as an analogy it still makes you look like an over reacting, short arsed, tool.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

and you miss out the other mitigating bits where it is said that new slots cannot be created so they have to take the fms of other planes. hence g4 replacing g2, g10 erla replacing g10, typhoion replacing (and having same fm as) tempest..

i get it now, having an 1-16 with the engine of a 190 and the guns of a hurricane doesnt really matter as long as it takes the places of the original rata ?

mm i think there might be a flaw there in your logic ?

Originally Posted by Lo0n

and now for your next round of insults..

dont be shy now, if you dish it out be prepared to be treated the same in return. when the lot of you starts to behave in a civilised manner, i think most others here will treat you the same in return.

Originally Posted by Lo0n

and still no post showing cheating happening. oh no. that would spoil the fun.

what is it with your bunch, do you have a brand new clone typing at the keyboard each time you logon and everything needs to be explained to you again ?

- links demonstrating cheating with the use of the soundmod files have been posted
- specific examples of the type of cheats in use were given, mirrors, gyro's etc..
- demonstrated non authorized planes in full real restricted servers being used
- franken monster plane examples given
- others from your own hack crowd confirmed here and "there" that checksum 2 doesnt work, even if you keep doubting me.

you seem to expect from me that i am going to post links to some of the actual hack files, or spend half a day creating some horror planes myself just because some doubting Thomas on some internet forum cant use google.

Originally Posted by Lo0n

...you win....you lose.

err is that why you keep posting here ?

i'll have to disappoint you, its not why i am posting here, everybody has already lost , even if you dont seem to realize it.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

well as an analogy it still makes you look like an over reacting, short arsed, tool.

now go tell your mum you'r being rude to nice people on the internet again !

[jasonbirder]

you must be the runt of the hacker litter, because you consistently make the least sense

Good to see you are able to hold an intelligent and reasonable discussion without resorting to schoolyard insults…but I guess that really sets the tone!

so lets translate the jason-speak,....the point that you are making is that therefore online cheating should be allowed completely unrestricted, even promoted,, just because it doesnt matter to jason ?

Well as indicated, not only does it not matter to me…it doesn’t matter to the vast majority of players…it only matters to a tiny proportion of people that play IL2 – just because its important to you doesn’t mean its important in the great scheme of things…It matters to a fraction of a minority (The Hyper lobby players only being a proportion of onliners…onliners only being a tiny minority amongst IL2 players) that doesn’t mean its not something that isn’t worth discussing…but framing the whole debate about the sound mod in terms of its impact on that minority and discounting the benefits it can realize for everyone else is an extremely blinkered view.

not only is that absurd, but whatever little time oleg had to add the last few fixes to other import bugs in the 4.09 patch, it being the LAST chance to fix things, now wont occur as extensively because they have to plug the hack leak, thanks jason, great idea there !

4.09 was only ever going to be a small add on, including the new maps – I think even the inclusion of the completed new flyables (Avia, Fokker & CW Interceptor) had been discounted because of time pressures…the reason that the last chance to fix things has not occurred is because of the pressure to develop BOB-SOW, NOT because of the sound mod.

the online multiplayer community has also been the most active in providing feedback, making requests, and influencing further developments in il2 since its inception. even if it is a part of total sales, rather than the complete market. and your quote is dated, it will nowadays be at least around 50%, with the increase in net access in the last years

Any evidence for this…or is it just a feeling you have? Giving feedback…making requests…influencing further development…What does that actually mean? Does it mean anything important beyond whining for more powerful .50 calibers’ and asking for an unrealistic delay on trim controls, to prevent online abuse? As I see it, the biggest contributors from a third party point of view are the skinners and campaign writers that develop for the offline market and the creators of third party utilities like DCG, Mission Mate and Mat Manager – again developed for Offline play…
If you genuinely believe that Onliners make up 50% of IL2 users…there are an awful lot of them hiding away…IL2 sold nearly 500,000 units in the West – are there really 250,000 people flying on Hyperlobby on a regular basis?

you'r on a roll now. so because jason cant count on his fingers how important online fair play is on ALL coop and dogfight servers for the community at large, we therefore should be bothered with hacking the files. let me ask my 9 yo if he sees the flaw in that......

I’m not sure I understand?

thank the gods you dont have a job that matters in the real world. you'r basically saying that because influenza does exists and can affect people, that we therefore shouldn't do anything about malaria, cholera, pox, aids, ... etc. dont you see it is irrational aspect of the "logic" you are using ?

Aside from the obvious distaste I have when people compare something as trivial as a game with something as serious as Malaria and Aids – I really don’t understand your comparison…

yes, lets take the argument to the absurd in order to try and make a point. your now saying that because there is not a shower of 1000 meteor's heading for the earth right now, that meteors dont matter. since you seem to live a sheltered life, maybe get out more on some of the better servers (yes, even those not on HL, presuming you can find them), and on voice comm's see what kind of observations the regulars have. most will have seen confirmations of cheating, and there has been a significant rise in reports since the sound hack started being spread into the wild.

I can see you’re really getting into the swing of things now…plagues…meteor storms…we are talking about a game here you know! Talk about Hyperbole…I understand that its important to the proportion of the community that flies online, on Hyperlobby and ASE…but I am making the point that we can’t frame the entire debate in those terms…there is a bigger (much bigger) picture to consider…

your lack of having some rational perspective on all of this is stunning ! you've now said that the existence of a widespread hack, its open promotion and widespread use actually doesnt matter at all, since people should only use servers you like, and that fairness and honesty in the whole online community isnt important. and emm, if people are really silly enough to play with other ww2 aviation enthousiasts from around the world, then really they should have some mother hen overseeing them 24/7 to make sure each user isnt cheating. i have a simpler solution, you go play werever you want with whatever you want, and the rest of us want a simple secure way to play online without cheating.

On the contrary I have an entirely rational perspective…A few onliners are concerned about the Sound Mod, a few onliners aren’t concerned about the sound mod, the sound mod doesn’t affect any offline players…that’s perspective…trying to convince everyone that the game is in its terminal death throes is a lack of proper perspective…
If fairness and honesty was that important to the online community – the sound mod wouldn’t be an issue…as no-one would use it online and you would all be able to trust each other; as it is you are obviously quite happy flying with people who are keen to cheat you, as soon as the tools and the opportunity were made available to them…Small wonder I prefer to fly with friends and family rather than with some anonymous user names from around the globe.

[jasonbirder]

dont you get a bit embarrassed giving each other hand jobs in public

you must be the runt of the hacker litter

tag team of hack kiddies gratifying each other

Zapatista I understand you feel passionately about this subject, but it does not reflect well on your argument or point of view if you need to resort to childish insults and flaming at every opportunity…I am sure you have valid points to make…but lets try and keep things from getting personal, please.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by Baron

But, if there are 10 000 people who only bought the sim for offline play since orginal IL2 it surly must mean that there are 10 000 offliners active right now...doesnt it?

Absolutly not. I know a lot of casual offline simmers that bought the sim, played a bit, then garbaged it. Number of buyers isn't representative of offliners.
In fact, neither you or me do know the number of actual active offliners.... so please don't pretend they represent 95% of the players... you just don't know.

Same with onliners, all the 700+ online at HL at any given day..is all the same 700+ in the intire world on any given day....surly?

You can have a better way to count. Currently almost 25% to 30% of the players each night play AW (Airforce War). All AW players are registered, go on AW site and count.... you'll get around 1/4 (or less) of the number of online players.... except casual players of course.

And like u said.....onliners are only bagage, a group that has no effect on the game what so ever. Oleg would have been twice as successfull hadnt it been for online whiners.

I did say that?.... I said exactly the contrary... please don't distord my words.
Just ask yourself a question: how many planes, cockpits, maps, skins, tools, missions, campaign, online wars were made by onliners from the begining of the sim up to now?
Whitout this work, The sim would have been far to be as important as it is today. It would probably be unsupported today, and played only by a few nostalgics.... maybe with a small second life with a small modder community like CFS3 for example... but not more.

In any case, the debate is biased. Offliners and "free modders" have all what they want... why would they deny to the onliners some real protection in 4.09 (which is all they can hope) ? Give me any good bloody reason?